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Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

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Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#51

Post by refurb »

gruez wrote: post #41
throwaway2048 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, the UK had absolutely zero chance at holding HK against the Chinese, HK was a tiny colony that could be seized basically instantly, and at the time decolonialization was still a global hotbutton issue. A few decades before negotiations began between China and the UK, India seized the Portuguese colony of Goa[1]. Nobody acted on behalf of the Portuguese. With the USA having just a few years beforehand suff…

>Consider as well, during the Korean war, A China still badly crippled by World War 2 almost single handedly defeated an entire coalition of western powers, including a USA at the zenith of their conventional arms power. Isn't that because China got the drop on the western powers?

From what I've read it was mostly hubris. Intelligence knew of the build up of Chinese Troops at the Yellow River. China has also shared through diplomatic channels that if UN troops got with 300 miles (? can't remember the exact number), China would stop them.

China did do a good job of attacking where the UN wasn't expecting as well.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#52

Post by rayiner »

door99 wrote: post #45
aswanson wrote: post #36

China is a horrific, authoritarian monster. I hope this century sees their vision checked and reduced back to the edges of humanity.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

They lifted people out of poverty by ditching an economic system that kept those people in poverty for decades.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#53

Post by save_ferris »

door99 wrote: post #45
aswanson wrote: post #36

China is a horrific, authoritarian monster. I hope this century sees their vision checked and reduced back to the edges of humanity.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

Suppressing the Tianenmen Square uprising. From a UK diplomatic cable describing the scene:

> STUDENTS LINKED ARMS BUT WERE MOWN DOWN INCLUDING SOLDIERS. APCS THEN RAN OVER BODIES TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO MAKE QUOTE PIE UNQUOTE AND REMAINS COLLECTED BY BULLDOZER. REMAINS INCINERATED AND THEN HOSED DOWN DRAINS.

Say what you will about the US, we still haven’t run citizens over with tanks and hosed them down drains.

Source: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Squar...

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#54

Post by IAmEveryone »

Rapzid wrote: post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

They had no choice. Not due to military might (Gibraltar would be just as defenceless against Spanish invasion, and yet it doesn't happen). But simply because holding on to colonies became morally unsustainable.

And the idea at the time was certainly that China would change in the five decades until unification. This was shortly after the end of the cold war, after all, which demonstrated that such change is possible, if not inevitable.

Thinking may have changed on that point. But I wouldn't fully exclude the possibility that China 2047 is more democratic than it is today. Things remain the same, until suddenly they don't.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#55

Post by gruez »

person_of_color wrote: post #48
gruez wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Consider as well, during the Korean war, A China still badly crippled by World War 2 almost single handedly defeated an entire coalition of western powers, including a USA at the zenith of their conventional arms power. Isn't that because China got the drop on the western powers?

> got the drop on the western powers Meaning what exactly?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/get_the_drop_on

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#56

Post by redis_mlc »

door99 wrote: post #45
aswanson wrote: post #36

China is a horrific, authoritarian monster. I hope this century sees their vision checked and reduced back to the edges of humanity.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

[dead]

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#57

Post by FpUser »

eloff wrote: post #38
Rapzid wrote: post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

There was no alternative really, China would have just seized HK by force. Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong though with this immigration offer. Politicians rarely do the right thing instead of the self-interested thing, but you have to hand it to Johnson's government on this one.

>"Politicians rarely do the right thing instead of the self-interested thing, but you have to hand it to Johnson's government on this one."

Not to worry, they'll still have a chance to turn it into Windrush Generation later on.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#58

Post by door99 »

save_ferris wrote: post #53
door99 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

Suppressing the Tianenmen Square uprising. From a UK diplomatic cable describing the scene: > STUDENTS LINKED ARMS BUT WERE MOWN DOWN INCLUDING SOLDIERS. APCS THEN RAN OVER BODIES TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO MAKE QUOTE PIE UNQUOTE AND REMAINS COLLECTED BY BULLDOZER. REMAINS INCINERATED AND THEN HOSED DOWN DRAINS. Say what you will about the US, we still haven’t run citizens over with tanks and hosed them down drains. Sour…

> Say what you will about the US, we still haven’t run citizens over with tanks and hosed them down drains.

do you know what happened in iraq?

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#59

Post by aswanson »

door99 wrote: post #45
aswanson wrote: post #36

China is a horrific, authoritarian monster. I hope this century sees their vision checked and reduced back to the edges of humanity.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

Probably many undocumented due to the secretive nature of their government. The threat China poses far outweighs any good they've accomplished recently. Old, unaccountable men with absolute power and surveillance of over 20 percent of the human species is not a good predicate for the 21st century.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#60

Post by FpUser »

throwaway5575 wrote: post #30
Rapzid wrote: post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

During the 1967 protests in Hong Kong, the British killed enough protestors to quash it and pave the way for a new generation that accepted the situation. I wonder if that is the game plan China is following? They have given up on the current generation , and are now hoping the next generation will follow them?

Do as I say, not as I do
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