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Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

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Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#241

Post by atomi »

bjourne wrote: post #180
Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #117

Maps like these give the false impression that nearly every square mile of land - even inhospitable desert regions, were once occupied by some native polity. Reality check: Most indigenous peoples lived in Mesoamerica, with < 10 million in what is now USA/Canada and that's being generous. There are regions of North America today that have no residents. By what grounds are these native lands - because some nomads once…

Maybe no one owns the land then? Owning land by purchasing a title registered in the State's land registry can hardly be a stronger claim than being a nomad wandering through.

I would add, the first people to make use of the land.

And just for some additional context, nearly all Native North Americans share the same ancestral DNA.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#242

Post by _opc6 »

magicmouse wrote: post #226

Indians entered america approx 8000 years ago. Many were nomadic hunter/gathering cultures, which have no defined territory. They followed animal herds, etc., so a map of their area is very approximate at best. Recently the oldest skeleton was found, and it was caucasian! Caused quite a stir. Remember that humans have been around for millions of years, and traveled in groups of around 200 people for most of that time…

> caucasian!

There is no evidence Native Americans originated from the Caucasus regions. We have remains that have been dated to as far back as 12,707–12,556 years BP. Accordingly:

> Paleogenomic analysis of the remains revealed Siberian ancestry and a close genetic relationship to modern Native Americans, including those of Central and South America.[1][3] These findings support the hypothesis that modern Native Americans are descended from Asian populations who crossed Beringia between 32,000 and 18,000 years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzick-1

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#243

Post by chrisco255 »

flatline wrote: post #41
chrisco255 wrote: post #27

The idea of the stable borders is so new. The Ottoman Empire still controlled much of the middle east before World War I. The British Empire was also still quite expansive at the beginning of that war (and into WW2). The fact that so much of the world speaks Latin-derived languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Italian...nearly 1 billion people in total) is a relic of the Roman empire's own expansive conque…

Indian land was taken over the course of hundreds of years of false promises and violated treaties. European settlers were predominately the ones drawing the maps, and consistently taking what was not only not theirs to begin with, but what they had agreed belonged to the native tribes and then took anyway. We're not talking about thousands of years of human history, we're talking about very real injustices that are…

"Indian" land is a meaningless term. When the Sioux fought with the Anishnabe over the Great Plains, whom the Anishnabe occupied earlier than the Sioux, who deserves that land? Do we owe reparations to the Sioux or to the Anishnabe? Presumptively, another tribe controlled that territory before the Anishnabe. There never was this concept of "owned, stable land" until modern times. The way of the world was more like you only got to keep what you could defend. This is why Europe is dotted with massive castles. 1000 years ago, a Viking party could end your town's existence in a single raid. This map is not representative of what is "theirs by treaty". This map is a rough outline of rough territories (some notably overlapping among the individual tribes) from some arbitrary point in the past. It's not relevant in the year 2020, sorry to say. No more so than a map of individual territories of the Germanic tribes of 200 years ago. The native American tribes do enjoy semi-autonomy in various territories across the U.S. and have even contributed to the development of the United States, with native Americans fighting alongside all the other races in nearly every war we've ever engaged in, including the Civil War, Spanish-American War, World War I, and World War II. They are U.S. citizens and part of this country. Rewinding the clock 200 years is not helpful or productive.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#244

Post by chrisco255 »

idontwantit wrote: post #56
chrisco255 wrote: post #27

The idea of the stable borders is so new. The Ottoman Empire still controlled much of the middle east before World War I. The British Empire was also still quite expansive at the beginning of that war (and into WW2). The fact that so much of the world speaks Latin-derived languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Italian...nearly 1 billion people in total) is a relic of the Roman empire's own expansive conque…

The examples of early natives torturing an executing people is a strange choice here. Readers, don't forget that these people are the contemporaries of the perpetrators of chattel slavery, and the french revolution, to name a few popular examples. The sordid atrocities committed all around the Americas by indigenous Europeans are very well-documented and continued beyond the 18th century, legitimized by the US societ…

The point is that among the tribes, there never was constant territory. They warred among themselves, conquered each other multiple times over, and there were numerous atrocities committed by some of the tribes who claim to deserve reparations. For the record, I don't think any of this is productive for humanity, but since this has become a popular movement of the moment, let's disentangle this. When the Sioux conquered the Anishnabe, when the Aztec sacrificed humans from "lesser" tribes by the thousands [1], when the Mayans conquered other tribes and did the same, when the Iroquois tortured their conquests, what reparations are these tribes owed? If we're going to rewind the clock 200 years, why not rewind it 300, 400, 1000 years? Let's untangle all of humanity's historical atrocities and try to really see how far this rabbit hole goes.

[1] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundred...

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#245

Post by ifokiedoke »

waffle_ss wrote: post #227
ifokiedoke wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand this sentiment - especially since as you say, most (if not all) of today's accepted states and borders are the result of bloody, unfair conquest - I do personally struggle with a system of objection/dismissal based on the "well, it's a dog-eats-world" mindset. Interestingly, I've also found that many people (I'm being a bit hand-wavy here, I know) who are completely fine with dismissing indigenous…

It's not a dismissal to give agency to the opposite side by highlighting their own inter-tribal conflicts and warrior culture. As for the bizarre strawman tangent, I have nothing to say about Tibet or Crimea, so ... ? Let's be more empathetic, sure, but let's remain truthful. Seemingly innocuous, feel-good statements like some of these land statements are not leading down any kind of path of reconciliation but rather…

I'm not entirely sure why you're being downvoted because I wouldn't consider your comment here that objectionable. And in fact you're right -- you did not say anything about Crimea/Tibet; that wasn't so much directed towards you in particular but an observation I was making about a lot of others I know who have said the same thing. It was a bit hand-wavy, and perhaps I should have left it out.

Thank being said, your original comment -- which is what I replied to -- was not so much about highlighting inter-tribal conflicts as it is now that you've edited it. I just want to point out that I really do not appreciate you editing your original comment then replying to me without acknowledging that you've done so, effectively trying to re-write history. It's extremely disingenuous and not at all in the spirit of HN.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#246

Post by BurningFrog »

yellowapple wrote: post #206
BurningFrog wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Just because the genocide didn't fully succeed in exterminating every last Native American doesn't mean it somehow wasn't a "systematic mass genocide", for the same reason that just because Nazi Germany didn't successfully wipe every last Jew off the face of the Earth doesn't mean that wasn't a "systematic mass genocide", or how just because the VRS didn't exterminate every last Bosniak doesn't mean the Bosnian genoc…

Nazi Germany did wipe out almost every last jew in the areas they controlled, in the ~4 years of the Holocaust. 90% of Poland's 3 million jews were killed.

After centuries of supposed genocide, the US Native American population is over 6 million, which is probably similar to what it was before colonization.

The biggest massacre I'm aware of¹ in the US is the 146 killed at Wounded Knee in 1890. The US had complete military superiority, and could have killed everyone at will, but mostly didn't. If this is a genocide, it's a very poorly executed one.

What makes this a bit confusing is that first contact did often result in 90% of the native population dying in both North and South America. But that was an unintentional and unforeseen effect of old world diseases hitting new world populations that had completely unprepared immune systems. Maybe the biggest "random" event in world history!

¹ Interested in learning of any bigger ones!

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#247

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Gunax wrote: post #185
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> certain major crimes committed within the boundaries of reservations must be prosecuted in federal court ( emphasis mine ) > So it's not the territory that determines jurisdiction Seems like there is some contradiction here.

If you are a tribal member, you may go to tribal court and be subject to their laws. If you are not, you won't.

Some of the Pueblo communities close to where I live (Santa Fe) do in fact claim jurisdiction over visitors on their land. There are large roadside signs notifying you of this as you cross into their territory.

The fact that this may not be true is almost certainly just the result of the federal government saying it isn't true, rather than anything to do with the desire of the various tribes.

In most countries, if you're an overseas visitor, you're subject to the law of the country you are in (though they may simply deport you pre or post trial). The fact that this is not (always) true for indian reservations likely reflects the fears of non-indian people rather than the desire of indians.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#248

Post by BeetleB »

kortilla wrote: post #229
BeetleB wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parent painted a picture of a one-sided, contemplative genocide when it was far from it. No he didn't. To put it bluntly, you're reading things that aren't there. We're all welcome to our interpretations of comments, but untentatively asserting your interpretation is a component of "not having a good faith conversation". > Neither was it a conflict uniquely faced by the United States - read up on the history of…

> No he didn't. To put it bluntly Of course he/she did. The entire premise is based on the notion that the nations before the US were somehow just and the US was not, despite the fact that they were all built on just as much violence and conquering.

> Of course he/she did.

"It's so obvious I cannot point where the person said it".

> The entire premise is based on the notion that the nations before the US were somehow just and the US was not

The commenter in question both implicitly and explicitly has said that is not the premise.

I can only repeat what I said to the other person:

> You're arguing against a nonexistent entity. And the point of my responding to you is to get you back to the reality of the thread, not an imaginary conversation that others here cannot see.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#249

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

filoeleven wrote: post #239
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A critical component of those modern mechanisms is that land claims can be put to rest. That after a border's acknowledged for a long time, it becomes the border, and everyone has to respect it even if we can't condone the process that created it. Under a standard where territorial claims can be resurrected at any time - where Mexico can declare it owns California, and Britain can declare it owns the Eastern Seaboard…

What? Russia claimed it owns part of Ukraine earlier this decade. Sudan split into two countries. There’s an ongoing dispute over islands between China and Japan. There’s also Hong Kong, and Taiwan. The Kurds get pushed around by the 4 nation-states who each claim part of their ancestral territory. India, Pakistan, and China all claim Kashmir. Last century, Israel was created after a war. The Ottoman Empire was parti…

I'm not sure I follow the question. A lot of the disputes you mention here are terribly violent, which is why I so strongly oppose efforts to create more of them. A border should almost always remain a border - the process of unmaking a border is so inherently dangerous that only the most extreme circumstances can possibly justify it.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#250

Post by dang »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #225
sershe wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this apply to Europe and Asia, where the land has been conquered dozens of times? I frankly don't see how indigenous people have any more rights to "their" land than say the descendants of any random tribe, kingdom or empire that once controlled Anatolia or England.

cool well I hope China invades your country and puts you and your family in education camps since you seem to think this is cool and good and there's nothing wrong with this.

Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

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