Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America • Hacker News Board

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#191

Post by klyrs » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #173

WalterBright wrote: post #165

If you build a garage on your neighbor's land, and he doesn't do anything about it, in about 10 years it becomes your land.

False. There’s no such thing as “squatters rights” or anything or a statute of limitations. At any point the neighbor can sue you to protect his land. Further, when either property is sold, a survey will show the discrepency.

Depends where you live. You and GP are quite possibly speaking true of your respective locations but overlooking the rest of the world.

In some jurisdictions, you are correct: the state owns all land, and purchase agreements are subject to consent of the state. No bill of sale, no rights. I know that the province of BC in Canada is one such jurisdiction. Irony here being that much of indigenous land in nominal BC is unceded and was stolen without even the pretense of a treaty.

On the other hand, I previously lived in Washington state, US, where one could legally take possession of land after 7 years of use and maintenance (as long as it isn't state or federal land), and as I understand it, a hefty chunk of paperwork.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#192

Post by cataphract » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

300bps wrote: post #120

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #117

Maps like these give the false impression that nearly every square mile of land - even inhospitable desert regions, were once occupied by some native polity. Reality check: Most indigenous peoples lived in Mesoamerica, with < 10 million in what is now USA/Canada and that's being generous. There are regions of North America today that have no residents. By what grounds are these native lands - because some nomads once…

This is why Adverse Possession has been a principle of law for thousands of years. Without such a concept, there can be no private ownership of land. Because someone can always come out of the woodwork with an old document that says the land your family has owned for tens or hundreds of years is actually their land. http://dirt.umkc.edu/archives/dirt2003/mar2003/adverse%20pos...

Well, the UK has basically killed adverse possession in the Land Registration Act 2002, so we'll see how that turns out for them.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#193

Post by refurb » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

waffle_ss wrote: post #184

thethethethe wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are brushing off the systematic, mass genocide of native people and dispossession of their land by essentially saying that its happened throughout history, that it’s normal. I’m not really sure how this argument justifies anything. The colonization of America is recent. NA indigenous people are still alive and have special designated land that they were forced to move to. They weren’t even given citizenship by de…

And you're brushing off all the conflict that Native Americans brought to bear against white settlers (do read some accounts of Apache or Comanche raids some time), and the concessions given to Native Americans after they were conquered (namely their own sovereign nations and plenty of carveouts to hunting and other laws so they can continue to practice their culture unhindered). They "weren't even given citizenship"…

Random comment - I assume your username is an attempt at wit, but even I did a double take

Suffice to say it was complicated. I was reading about the tribes that aligned with the Confederacy and the fate of black slaves owned by tribes post-Civil War.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#194

Post by throwawaypoop12 » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

and how do we know this map is even close to accurate? they were busy killing each other long before we got here.

wHiTeMaNbAd

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#195

Post by marc_abonce » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:36 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #32

This map should really have some dates on it. It might represent the state of things within, say, a 100 year period (or so) of European arrival, but it doesn't convey the history of humans in North America. I read the FAQ and could not find any information on what time period is represented here. If someone showed you a map of Europe or China marked out like this, it would be natural to ask "when is this?" None of th…

Yup. At a quick glance I think there are some inconsistencies with the dating.

For example, the map portrays Guanajuato as inhabited by Guamares which hasn't really been the case for centuries, or at least there is no recognized group that self identifies as such anymore.

Conversely, the Huron-Wendat are portrayed to live in the St. Lawrence, as is the case now, rather than around Lake Huron as they did in the 1600's.

So both cases can't be simultaneously correct. I think the map is meant to portray modern locations, but I'm not entirely sure.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#196

Post by refurb » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

santoshalper wrote: post #45

chrisco255 wrote: post #27

The idea of the stable borders is so new. The Ottoman Empire still controlled much of the middle east before World War I. The British Empire was also still quite expansive at the beginning of that war (and into WW2). The fact that so much of the world speaks Latin-derived languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Italian...nearly 1 billion people in total) is a relic of the Roman empire's own expansive conque…

I've heard some version of this argument many times, but I never really understand the point. Is your point that because the world has been terrible for years, we should not bother to do better and try to right wrongs? What an incredibly defeatist attitude. That just sounds like you are being defensive to criticism of our culture, which is never helpful. Is your point that you believe that the United States is unique…

we should not bother to do better and try to right wrongs?

Are we not better than we were 400 years ago? I think we are.

And righting wrongs? Which wrongs? It's wrongs all the way down. Nobody's hands are clean. Humans have been butchering each other since the beginning of time. We do it less frequently now and attempt to put some rules around it, but we still do it.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#197

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:38 AM UTC

waffle_ss wrote: post #184

thethethethe wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are brushing off the systematic, mass genocide of native people and dispossession of their land by essentially saying that its happened throughout history, that it’s normal. I’m not really sure how this argument justifies anything. The colonization of America is recent. NA indigenous people are still alive and have special designated land that they were forced to move to. They weren’t even given citizenship by de…

And you're brushing off all the conflict that Native Americans brought to bear against white settlers (do read some accounts of Apache or Comanche raids some time), and the concessions given to Native Americans after they were conquered (namely their own sovereign nations and plenty of carveouts to hunting and other laws so they can continue to practice their culture unhindered). They "weren't even given citizenship"…

> And you're brushing off all the conflict that Native Americans brought to bear against white settlers

Given that you're the first person to bring this up, accusing your parent for "brushing this off" is not coming across as an attempt to have a good faith conversation.

> and the concessions given to Native Americans after they were conquered (namely their own sovereign nations and plenty of carveouts to hunting and other laws so they can continue to practice their culture unhindered).

The US often didn't honor the terms of these concessions.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#198

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:38 AM UTC

thethethethe wrote: post #171

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you are trying to avoid the question. What gives indigenous peoples any moral high ground over later settlers? The indigenous* conquered land from each other and moved - an obvious fact which too often gets left out of the conversation. Then, the Europeans came along and possessed the lands for themselves. And you'll find the same story repeated on every corner of the earth. Continual occupation is just…

You are brushing off the systematic, mass genocide of native people and dispossession of their land by essentially saying that its happened throughout history, that it’s normal. I’m not really sure how this argument justifies anything. The colonization of America is recent. NA indigenous people are still alive and have special designated land that they were forced to move to. They weren’t even given citizenship by de…

[flagged]

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#199

Post by refurb » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #100

waffle_ss wrote: post #63

Human history is a story of conquest, and Native Americans fought - fought , not rolled over on their bellies - and were conquered by white settlers. It might not have been a very fair fight given the disparity in technology but it was a fight nonetheless. The natives were certainly fighting each other before whites arrived, too - the warrior role is an important part of many tribes' culture. Should the Comanche give…

Humans have not found a more stable normative concept of capital allocation (property) than: "Who got here first."

The US motto "Might makes right" is along similar lines - we like to think about "right" and "wrong" when in the end, it's the strongest who get their way.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#200

Post by refurb » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

sxv wrote: post #103

fennecfoxen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so simple. Kind of hard to run a farm and grow your food when "land belongs to all". And who'd be stupid enough to put up a building on land they don't own?

I think you are suffering from "I can't imagine how things could work differently because I only know how things work currently". Where I am located, on the coast of Ecuador, most land is collectively owned by the "comuna", or a group of local villagers. They sell temporary land-use permits (usufruct) but the land will always belong to the comuna. I can still build on it with the understanding that I would only pass…

This isn't that different than the US. When you "own" land you have freehold ownership - you own it within the framework of the state and it can be taken away (with compensation), taxed, etc. In essence, the state is letting you own it.

It's not allodial title which would be true ownership.