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Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

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Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#221

Post by waffle_ss »

deleuze wrote: post #218
waffle_ss wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My handle dates back to the 90s, when people barely rolled their eyes at a pun in poor taste. It's probably at its apex of hilarity right now, given the sheer number of folks pissing their pants because of a delusion that there are innumerable secret members of a looooong-dead political party hiding under every bed.

> It's probably at its apex of hilarity right now, given the sheer number of folks pissing their pants because of a delusion that there are innumerable secret members of a looooong-dead political party hiding under every bed. Huh, "wild coincidence" that a user with the name "waffle_ss" spends their time posting about crime statistics and how killing indigenous people is whatever. I'm sure it has nothing to do with y…

[flagged]

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#222

Post by BeetleB »

waffle_ss wrote: post #214
BeetleB wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you're brushing off all the conflict that Native Americans brought to bear against white settlers Given that you're the first person to bring this up, accusing your parent for "brushing this off" is not coming across as an attempt to have a good faith conversation. > and the concessions given to Native Americans after they were conquered (namely their own sovereign nations and plenty of carveouts to hunting and…

The parent painted a picture of a one-sided, contemplative genocide when it was far from it. Neither was it a conflict uniquely faced by the United States - read up on the history of Mexico and the Apache for instance. If you want a short biopic version just read about Geronimo's life and what he thought about Mexicans. > The US often didn't honor the terms of these concessions. I agree, not in all cases. But before…

> The parent painted a picture of a one-sided, contemplative genocide when it was far from it.

No he didn't. To put it bluntly, you're reading things that aren't there. We're all welcome to our interpretations of comments, but untentatively asserting your interpretation is a component of "not having a good faith conversation".

> Neither was it a conflict uniquely faced by the United States - read up on the history of Mexico and the Apache for instance.

And why the need to point this out, when the comment you responded to never suggested otherwise? There is, in fact, implicit acceptance of other genocides in the comment.

> But before we could talk reasonably about this we needed to swing the conversation back from the idea that the US gov't was operating a land-stealing, genociding steamroller (and for apparently no reason at all, no less).

Who exactly are you talking about here? The comment in question never implied "apparently no reason at all".

You're arguing against a nonexistent entity. And the point of my responding to you is to get you back to the reality of the thread, not an imaginary conversation that others here cannot see.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#223

Post by Tiktaalik »

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #183
Tiktaalik wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You're putting words in my mouth as a red herring. I pointed out how practically everyone is living on conquered land - yes, even the native americans who wrested it from each other, though you cast shade on this inconvenient fact. So does whose.land, which rationalizes the overlapping amerindian borders like so: "Often, boundaries between territories overlap because the Indigenous Nations were continuously sharing t…

No you're trying to give settlers a pass on amoral behaviour.

It doesn't matter what conflicts indigenous nations may have entered into (and to be clear, you are completely speculating that they did). It does not justify the behaviour of the settlers that came after.

Effectively your argument is a childlike "well he did it therefore I should be able to". Have higher standards.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#224

Post by Tiktaalik »

DiffEq wrote: post #212
Tiktaalik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indigenous people have been in NA for an extremely long time and have sorted themselves into nations over that time just like any where else in the world. If there are overlapping disagreements between Indigenous Nations about land title, as there are with all sorts of modern nations around the world, there are lots of modern mechanisms to settle that. Not sure how any of this has any relevance or should be used as a…

The time tested ancient and modern mechanism to settle such claims has been war. They lost the war. That is it; victors make the rules after that.

fucking get a load of this guy.

Maybe try to ground yourself in reality and get a moral framework.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#225

Post by Tiktaalik »

sershe wrote: post #219
Tiktaalik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indigenous people have been in NA for an extremely long time and have sorted themselves into nations over that time just like any where else in the world. If there are overlapping disagreements between Indigenous Nations about land title, as there are with all sorts of modern nations around the world, there are lots of modern mechanisms to settle that. Not sure how any of this has any relevance or should be used as a…

How would this apply to Europe and Asia, where the land has been conquered dozens of times? I frankly don't see how indigenous people have any more rights to "their" land than say the descendants of any random tribe, kingdom or empire that once controlled Anatolia or England.

cool well I hope China invades your country and puts you and your family in education camps since you seem to think this is cool and good and there's nothing wrong with this.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#226

Post by magicmouse »

Indians entered america approx 8000 years ago. Many were nomadic hunter/gathering cultures, which have no defined territory. They followed animal herds, etc., so a map of their area is very approximate at best.

Recently the oldest skeleton was found, and it was caucasian! Caused quite a stir.

Remember that humans have been around for millions of years, and traveled in groups of around 200 people for most of that time. Organization came much later.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#227

Post by waffle_ss »

ifokiedoke wrote: post #71
waffle_ss wrote: post #63

Human history is a story of conquest, and Native Americans fought - fought , not rolled over on their bellies - and were conquered by white settlers. It might not have been a very fair fight given the disparity in technology but it was a fight nonetheless. The natives were certainly fighting each other before whites arrived, too - the warrior role is an important part of many tribes' culture. Should the Comanche give…

While I understand this sentiment - especially since as you say, most (if not all) of today's accepted states and borders are the result of bloody, unfair conquest - I do personally struggle with a system of objection/dismissal based on the "well, it's a dog-eats-world" mindset. Interestingly, I've also found that many people (I'm being a bit hand-wavy here, I know) who are completely fine with dismissing indigenous…

It's not a dismissal to give agency to the opposite side by highlighting their own inter-tribal conflicts and warrior culture.

As for the bizarre strawman tangent, I have nothing to say about Tibet or Crimea, so ... ?

Let's be more empathetic, sure, but let's remain truthful. Seemingly innocuous, feel-good statements like some of these land statements are not leading down any kind of path of reconciliation but rather stoking further resentment and conflict as you've opened the floodgates to unlimited re-litigation of all past grievances.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#228

Post by kortilla »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #153
Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what right did the the land belong to the native Americans? Do you think all the native tribes spilled out of Alaska and then neatly fitted themselves into mutually-recognized non-overlapping territories never to be disturbed?

Indigenous people have been in NA for an extremely long time and have sorted themselves into nations over that time just like any where else in the world. If there are overlapping disagreements between Indigenous Nations about land title, as there are with all sorts of modern nations around the world, there are lots of modern mechanisms to settle that. Not sure how any of this has any relevance or should be used as a…

Well it sounds like the settlers just went ahead and “sorted themselves into a nation” now didn’t they?

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#229

Post by kortilla »

BeetleB wrote: post #222
waffle_ss wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent painted a picture of a one-sided, contemplative genocide when it was far from it. Neither was it a conflict uniquely faced by the United States - read up on the history of Mexico and the Apache for instance. If you want a short biopic version just read about Geronimo's life and what he thought about Mexicans. > The US often didn't honor the terms of these concessions. I agree, not in all cases. But before…

> The parent painted a picture of a one-sided, contemplative genocide when it was far from it. No he didn't. To put it bluntly, you're reading things that aren't there. We're all welcome to our interpretations of comments, but untentatively asserting your interpretation is a component of "not having a good faith conversation". > Neither was it a conflict uniquely faced by the United States - read up on the history of…

> No he didn't. To put it bluntly

Of course he/she did. The entire premise is based on the notion that the nations before the US were somehow just and the US was not, despite the fact that they were all built on just as much violence and conquering.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#230

Post by kortilla »

rexpop wrote: post #124
Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #117

Maps like these give the false impression that nearly every square mile of land - even inhospitable desert regions, were once occupied by some native polity. Reality check: Most indigenous peoples lived in Mesoamerica, with < 10 million in what is now USA/Canada and that's being generous. There are regions of North America today that have no residents. By what grounds are these native lands - because some nomads once…

For one thing, it's incredibly chauvinistic to dismiss pre-colombian society as "some nomads," and their mobility patterns as having "wandered". Nomadic life-ways aren't the thoughtless ramblings of a child at play, or a sub-sentient beast in simple reactionary pursuit of greener pastures. They summer here, winter there, raise children in these parts, and visit those for sport, trade, or agriculture. Their relationsh…

Nomadic lifestyles don’t scale. It’s not that “living off the land” is somehow trivial or dumb. In order to treat people with complex diseases, develop medicines, avoid famines during the cold, etc, a civilization needs to move beyond a nomadic lifestyle technologically.
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