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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#881

Post by vntok »

rustybolt wrote: post #843
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

> If you manage to find a vulnerability in this system, I don't think I even mind, because you've also broken physics and very possibly found a way to generate unlimited electricity forever Or your LED might be broken.

If the LED is broken, so is the camera.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#882

Post by _fat_santa »

aloer wrote: post #825
johne20 wrote: post #606

This happened to me. Twice. I bought a 16" mbp when it was released because the keyboard of the previous mbp gave me carpal tunnel. I immediately added a camera cover like I always had done on macs. My screen stopped working a few days later, but mbp still worked on my external monitor. I took it in and they replaced the display for free via applecare. Once I got my mbp back, I added the camera cover again (stupidly)…

What kind of cover was this? My company provides a ~1.2mm thick plastic cover with a little slider inside. I didn't even trust it enough to be used on a thinkpad, much less a macbook What I do now is either ripping off a small piece of the sticky top of sticky notes (keep the remainder for later reuse) or a piece of washi tape.

Yeah looking at the thickness of most camera covers, I always thought "hmm this might damage the display if I close it". Well looks like this support article proves my point. I always used sticky notes or other stuff. Now thought I've got a standalone webcam that can tilt up and down so I just tilt up so it's facing my ceiling.

I look forward to getting extorted by hackers threatening to tell the world what my ceiling looks like.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#883

Post by dguest »

bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

Just to illustrate the third point:

Our company's video conferencing software has multiple "modes" for a conference call, which the moderator could configure. Hardly anyone ever changed the mode, but at one point while trying to configure something unrelated I ended up switching modes in the middle of the conference call. To my horror the software immediately turned on everyone's camera.

Luckily the strain of streaming 40 video feeds to everyone 40 participants pretty much locked up the call, but for a brief moment I was able to enable approximately 40 cameras from people who were just sitting in their houses, who knows how dressed or what was going on behind them (I tried not to look).

I'm pretty sure we can apply Hanlon's Razor here and assume it was just an innocent bug: it's not hard to see how joe programmer might have overlooked the default settings when the mode is changed during some completely unrelated refactor. But whatever the case, as long as video conferencing remains lucrative vendors will continue to pack features into the software, and as long as they keep adding features, they will continue to create additional edge cases to trigger these incidents.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#884

Post by gugagore »

agsamek wrote: post #803
harha wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding B: I’m wondering if the camera or the led typically break Would first with a higher probability

It is extremely unlikely (in the human terms - not possible) that LED would break in such a way that it transmits the power and not emit light at the same time. Of course the LED can be installed in a parallel connection on the circuit, but I read the op statement as it is not the case.

Why did you read that it's not the case? I read the opposite. That if the LED broke, you'd notice it because your camera would be on and the light would be off.

Not that the camera never turns on.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#885

Post by 488643689 »

zelon88 wrote: post #442

None of the proposed solutions do anything to actually stop the camera from taking a picture of you. Sure, you'll see the indicator light up for 3 seconds. But the attacker still got what they needed. Camera covers have nothing to do with identifying compromise. They are strictly for preventing compromise. This is exactly opposite what a camera indicator light does, and thus the indicator should not be considered a "…

Newer Thinkpads are the only laptops I've seen which bring their own camera shutters. Thinking how often you see people putting tape over their camera, it's quite astonishing build in shutters aren't more common. It's a tiny piece of plastic, costing nothing.

Now what I want is a hardware microphone switch, where the off state actually connects to a noise generator.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#886

Post by soulofmischief »

valuearb wrote: post #722
soulofmischief wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument to not having a cover is that some people will occasionally forget to use it. That's preposterous, and I can't imagine applying that argument with a straight face to something like seatbelts or gun safety mechanisms. > The LED indicator is all you need as long as its hardwired like Apple's is. An LED indicator does nothing to stop someone from snooping.

A camera cover does nothing to stop snooping, because it’s unlikely to be used. You have four calls a day, are you always going to remember to close that cover? People also have to train themselves to wear seatbelts, but it’s the law so it made that easier. A LED indicator makes snooping obvious, exposing them immediately. Someone snooping your spy camera needs to record hours upon hours of recording to find anything…

A camera cover does nothing to stop snooping, because it’s unlikely to be used.

You still haven't switched tactics despite me demonstrating how it's an invalid argument. Not only do you have zero data to support this conjecture, but he camera cover is not there for the people who don't use it. It's there for the people who do use it.

It was a long time before seatbelts were legally mandated. That didn't stop the safety-conscious folk from wanting and using them.

I have friends now who never wear their seatbelt. Two years ago my oldest friend whom I've known since I was five was killed in an accident because he forgot to wear his seatbelt. Is the answer to take seatbelts back out because some people won't use them? Of course not. The answer is more seatbelt awareness campaigns from auto manufacturers.

The LED indicator is a bit like police, who respond to burglaries after they've happened, while a camera cover is the deadbolt which prevents the crime in the first place. Do you leave your house unlocked at night, too?

You clearly are arguing for argument's sake, and have no interest in actually considering what I am saying, just repeating the same tired points over and over again. I'm done here.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#887

Post by jankiehodgpodge »

snapit wrote: post #562
gtm1260 wrote: post #20

I was very skeptical of the camera covers, but then through conversations with some of my co-workers, I realized that they weren't being used because people were worried about spies secretly turning on the camera. It was 90% of the time just peace of mind that their camera was actually off, instead of having to find the sometimes hard to see options in video chat programs etc.

The Huawei Mate book X Pro has a key on the keyboard that when pressed flicks up a camera. When it is down it shows a black hole inside the keyboard. When it is up it shows a great angle directly up your nose and typing when in a video call shows your hands really clearly. But it is still an interesting way to do it.

A privacy feature on a Huawei laptop...

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#888

Post by karaterobot »

We're surrounded by tiny, meaningless LEDs. I've even tried to avoid them, but right now I can see three of them from where I'm sitting, and if I turn my head away from the corner where my computer desk is positioned, I can see three more (one of them, on an electric toothbrush, is blinking to tell me it's fully charged...).

Sometimes a light being on mean "everything's okay, don't even worry about me" but sometimes LEDs being on means "pay attention, this is important!", and sometimes LEDs being on means "LEDs are so cheap, we threw one on this device for no reason".

Second, there is no shared 'vocabulary' of lighting that tells you consistently what a light being on means (consider how in this case, Apple wants us to consider a green light to be a warning indicator).

Given this, I'm not at all convinced that a light being on would be enough to warn most people that they're being spied on, or that most people would even notice another small LED being on in the first place. Consider changing this UX!

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#890

Post by michaelt »

mFixman wrote: post #875
gtm1260 wrote: post #20

I was very skeptical of the camera covers, but then through conversations with some of my co-workers, I realized that they weren't being used because people were worried about spies secretly turning on the camera. It was 90% of the time just peace of mind that their camera was actually off, instead of having to find the sometimes hard to see options in video chat programs etc.

I never really understood the point of camera covers. If my computer is compromised to the point where an attacker can access my camera and microphone, information from my camera and microphone are the least of my problems.

Now I'm old enough that there's money in the bank accounts I access online, and I can afford a home big enough that the room I use my computer in isn't the room I get dressed in and have sex in, absolutely.

But if I was giving a computer to a 12 year old or 16 year old - what else is the hacker going to take? Their online gaming account?

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