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U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#831
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the senate itself existing was a mistake. It only is fair in the context of some kind of relative equality of states, letting low-population states grind policy to a halt is inherently antidemocratic. (by design! the point was to give smaller states a say and that itself is the problem, it is a bad idea to let a minority be able to grind all action to a halt. You say "but what if they do something I don't like" and t…

We must inspect your assumption that the Senate is unfair because States differ in population. I believe this assumption reflects an inordinate weighting of American citizenship above State citizenship in the union. Historically it could be argued that State citizenship is central to the Republic, whereby territorial governments voluntarily entered the Union as a State, where in exchange for subjugation under the Fed…

> We must inspect your assumption that the Senate is unfair because States differ in population.

Oh we must, must we? Why's that?

It's not an assumption, but rather an assertion, based on the observed outcomes of this system in action, and the strife it has caused (literally a civil war, and gridlock in the modern era).

The assumption here is that representing states themselves is in any way a desirable goal. Just because the founders did it, does not mean that it was a good idea. Being able to observe outcomes and change your course of action when the results are not good is the mature thing to do. We do not need fetishism of the actions of people who are 200 years in the grave, the founders themselves advised against such a thing and gave mechanisms for the constitution to be changed. Unfortunately these have atrophied along with the rest of the american federal system.

States have lots of other ways to express their will: they have unitary power within their territory, they have the ability to lobby congress and the people, and they can sue if they believe their powers have been unfairly abrogated. The senate as an institution representing states directly has been dead for over a century. It is now an institution representing the people in those states already - but a very undemocratic and unfair one.

> The solution is not to remove the Senate/House combination that balances the will of people and the will of States, but for larger states to break up into smaller ones.

Which is a tacit admission that you think equality of states is a necessary and worthwhile goal to make the Senate work properly. You just disagree about how to fix the current problems with the Senate.

Sure, dividing states up to a more equal population is one way to make it work. Probably not really possible when New York City alone has the population of what, 15 or so states combined? Do you suggest fracturing the city into 15 states? That would be incredibly awful to administer.

Very simply, the Senate is just a failed design and cannot be reasonably fixed without inflicting even more cumbersome forms of government just to try and preserve it for the sake of preserving it. It needs to just be eliminated.

Not that there is any plausible means to reach any of these goals of course, Congress would not approve of states dividing themselves up since that would disadvantage Republicans. Politicians will never vote to remove their own structural advantages even when it is the democratic thing to do.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#832
post #804
post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from it's past. Much benefit was gained from injustices of the past. What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? What kind of values are those?

>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees fr…

How does this solve a legal land dispute that has been going on for generations? "We'll mention you in childrens' text books" doesn't do justice.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're referencing is probably a "prescriptive easement" and is legal (depending on your jurisdiction). If your jurisdiction does not have "adverse possession" or "prescriptive easement" laws, you can probably tear that fence down or do whatever else you want with it. (IANAL and please just talk to your neighbors first!) None of this is related, either legally or in spirit, with the sentence you cited. The cited…

> If your jurisdiction does not have "adverse possession" or "prescriptive easement" laws, you can probably tear that fence down or do whatever else you want with it. My jurisdiction does, of course, which is why I mentioned it. > None of this has anything, either legally or in spirit, with the sentence you cited I disagree, strongly. I acknowledge that the fence line is now legal, in the colloquial sense meaning "in…

>I acknowledge that the fence line is now legal, in the colloquial sense meaning "in compliance with the law".

Excuse me? What on earth does legal mean other than specifically being "in compliance with the law"? There is nothing colloquial about it, that's quite literally the formal definition.

>However, it's similar in spirit in that something that was forbidden, if done for long enough, becomes permitted. If you can't see the analogy, I recommend you just shrug and move on.

This is not true at all. The whole basis for a prescriptive easement rests upon the fact that it wasn't forbidden. If you object to someone's use of your land, then their fence becomes illegal and is indeed forbidden. To acquire an easement, you need to prove that your use was not contentious, ie. specifically demonstrate that your usage did not contravene any prohibition.

> If you can't see the analogy, I recommend you just shrug and move on.

I recommend you take a moment to reflect on how obnoxious this is, regardless of if you were correct in the first place.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#834
post #757
post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We gave them some shitty land in Oklahoma Interesting sentiment. As someone who grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, I think you should go there and tell the people who live there your thoughts.

The fact that people live there doesn't make it desirable. People will always defend where they live. Don't be naive.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to stop our neverending war on drugs is a Constitutional amendment that guarantees every American the right to consume anything they want for any reason. In the next several decades there will be un unprecedented number of elderly Americans living below the poverty line with no pension and medical issues they can't afford to fix - euthanasia will become something of a nuclear option that they'll want ava…

Within reason right? I'm hoping that 'the right to consume anything they want for any reason' wouldn't include those things that cause sudden violent behavior and inability to feel fear and pain. I forget which particular drug does this, but a search brought me to meth and I found this article which says people feel 'invincible' and 'paranoid' and can't be stopped with non-lethal means. https://www.cpr.org/2020/02/05…

Seems like you can just require a license or prescription that can be taken away

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to stop our neverending war on drugs is a Constitutional amendment that guarantees every American the right to consume anything they want for any reason. In the next several decades there will be un unprecedented number of elderly Americans living below the poverty line with no pension and medical issues they can't afford to fix - euthanasia will become something of a nuclear option that they'll want ava…

We’ve really reached quite the low point if mind altering substances and suicide are considered the way to improve things...

The parent wasn’t advocating for the use of drugs, they were saying we shouldn’t lock people up for doing drugs. Do you think we should lock up drug addicts?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#837
post #720
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Gorsuch's opinion does directly imply is that the "promise" to the Creek can be revoked by Congress at any time, i.e. it's hardly a "promise" at all.

Well, yes, but that's just a fact of legislation. There are no "promises"; there are just laws that are easy or hard to change. If we were to amend the constitution to set aside land for native peoples, then that's probably the closest we can get to a promise, as that's probably the hardest kind of law to change -- but it's still not a promise, because it can be changed. Sure, Congressional legislation could take awa…

The Russian Duma could revoke the sale of Alaska to the United States and declare that they still own it. What stops them from doing so? The fact that the US military would stop them from trying to repossess the land.

The "promise" to the Creek isn't worth the paper it's written on because they don't have enough military might to enforce the terms of the agreement. The US operates with them as it does with every one else, on the principle of "might makes right."

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#838
post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Mohawk have claimed a large chunk of New York Anyone can claim anything they want. What is relevant here, and why this case was decided the way it was, is that the federal government and the tribe entered into a legally binding, clear contract. Lands east of the Mississippi in exchange for a large piece of what is now Oklahoma, in perpetuity. And Congress never explicitly reneged on that contract. Ergo, it stil…

I imagine Congress is going to pass a law the ensures that Tulsa is not on part of the reservation. ...because that would be ludicrous. The Supreme Court is essentially forcing Congress to take a stance.

Large parts of Tacoma Washington are tribal land owned by non-tribe members and it functions. I would assume a similar arrangement would work in Tulsa.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#839
post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious if you can give an example of a promise that cannot ever be revoked?

I mean, the only reason that Congress can revoke a promise to the Creek Indians is that they have a stronger military. It's not about justice, it's just about strength.

I expect someday Congress with revoke the promise of a social security check, when the system can no longer stand on its own.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is this 'we' you reference? Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible for crimes committed on Native Americans before they or their ancestors/families arrived in a recognized (at the time of arrival) Sovereign Country. Would be interested in your justification for holding citizens of today's US responsible for an event that happened more than 100 years ago, before they lived o…

> Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible [...] Yes, the whole point of being citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state. We collectively owe interest on the national debt. We still must abide by international treaties signed and ratified by long-dead representatives. We follow a constitution written long ago, and if we want to chan…

It’s one thing to be obligated to follow the law of the country. But it’s another to be assigned moral guilt for things you have no involvement in.
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