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Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

chicagoreporter.com

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Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#51

Post by jcranmer »

hpoe wrote: post #32
aaomidi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The federal government acts as an oversight body. They should do their job as an oversight body.

So, I would be interested to hear more of your legal theory for this as it could be argued. However in the United States Constitution the 10th Amendment states that all powers not explicitly delegated to the federal government are reserved to the states. Thus establishing the principle of the separation of powers between the federal and state governments as integral to American law. Thus according to the constitution…

The 14th Amendment says:

> No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. [ ... ] The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

That gives ground for the US government to oversee the states, at least in matters of judicial and policing oversight.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#52

Post by dragonwriter »

jstanley wrote: post #48
vxNsr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you against all government unions? What about quasi-gov orgs like SEC? Or teachers? Just trying to understand where you fall on the “unions for me but not thee” scale

If you accept that a labour union represents collective bargaining of labour against capital, and you accept that government workers do not need to negotiate with capital, then you must conclude that government employees don't need to be unionised.

> and you accept that government workers do not need to negotiate with capital

Government workers negotiate with capital; they don't negotiate with private capital, but state capital is still capital.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#53

Post by vxNsr »

unethical_ban wrote: post #44
vxNsr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you against all government unions? What about quasi-gov orgs like SEC? Or teachers? Just trying to understand where you fall on the “unions for me but not thee” scale

The one whose members consist of individuals with the ability to detain, assault and murder you, often with impunity via the thin veneer of "I was in fear for my life".

What if they can support fabricate such evidence that you’re considered a criminal?

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#55

Post by commandlinefan »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #11
save_ferris wrote: post #6

It's crazy to me that in 2020, there isn't comprehensive, mandatory Federal tracking of police-involved shootings. There's no reason that this data shouldn't be mandated to be aggregated and researched, other than to continue propagating a culture of secrecy. From the FBI's Use-of-Force data collection site[0]: > Is it mandatory for law enforcement agencies to contribute to this data collection? > The FBI has no lega…

I completely agree with this. Our national debate would be so much better if we had better data. Of course, some people aren't going to be persuaded by data and will probably try to condemn/intimidate/impugn-the-motives-of etc anyone who tries to talk about the data, but it would at least help good-faith people have a more productive debate.

> Our national debate would be so much better if we had better data.

I doubt it. People have crunched the data that we do have and found that it doesn't support the popular narrative - and been fired from their jobs just for crunching the numbers.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#56

Post by strstr »

vxNsr wrote: post #34
heavyset_go wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's crazy to me that in 2020, there isn't comprehensive, mandatory Federal tracking of police-involved shootings. There is a billion dollar lobby that goes up to bat whenever law enforcement gets bad press, or legislation they don't like gets proposed. While I'm in favor of unionization, I do not support organizations that represent the strong arm of the state's desire to operate opaquely and without oversight fro…

So are you against all government unions? What about quasi-gov orgs like SEC? Or teachers? Just trying to understand where you fall on the “unions for me but not thee” scale

These questions underly a particular argument that I don’t buy. We institute fairly hefty national standards on schools. I can go and look up the average scores for standardized tests for students for the high school I attended, and, afaik, essentially all schools in the US. Why can’t I do the same thing for police departments?

Somehow, police unions are able to avoid having similar accountability.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#57

Post by elliekelly »

nightski wrote: post #41
throwaway894345 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this. Our national debate would be so much better if we had better data. Of course, some people aren't going to be persuaded by data and will probably try to condemn/intimidate/impugn-the-motives-of etc anyone who tries to talk about the data, but it would at least help good-faith people have a more productive debate.

I'm not against collecting data. But one problem with mixing data collection and politics is that just by selecting which data to collect and which data to not collect you are implicitly crafting a narrative. It's very subjective, and the data collected will be based on the agenda of the politics at hand. There is no such thing as pure unbiased data collection.

It can be done though, can’t it? The SEC’s mandate is largely to enforce accurate and timely disclosure of information to the public. It’s not a perfect system but it works pretty well.

Why couldn’t there be an SEC-type entity that requires periodic public filings from police departments or hospitals?

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#58

Post by Latty »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #45
Latty wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A notable example is the way that gun violence data has been continuously and specifically suppressed by those who oppose gun control in the US (e.g: the Dickey Amendment, which had an extreme chilling effect on the CDC studying gun violence). Unfortunately, it is common for those with power to see the data as a stick they can be beaten with rather than as a tool to do better. Of course, an example of the negative po…

I don’t see how this comment relates to my post or the broader conversation at all. This seems highly off-topic.

Well, my intent was to highlight that there is a similarity: those deciding how (or if) this data should be collected wish to suppress it because they believe it would result in change when they are invested in the status-quo.

Fundamentally trying to insulate data collection from those with invested with the status-quo (in all situations) would be sensible.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#59

Post by dragonwriter »

dlp211 wrote: post #46
vxNsr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you against all government unions? What about quasi-gov orgs like SEC? Or teachers? Just trying to understand where you fall on the “unions for me but not thee” scale

When the SEC and teachers are capable of using the authority of the State to take my life with qualified immunity for civil rights violations all while abusing overtime and other overpayment techniques and their unions go to bat for them, I will call for an end to their unions.

> When the SEC and teachers are capable of using the authority of the State to take my life with qualified immunity

Teachers are covered by QI just as much as cops, and there is much less past precedent on use of force by teachers. Since QI works on the principle of “the absence of precedent covering similar actors in similar circumstances and ruling it unlawful means you can't be held liable”, they probably are more able to do that covered by QI.

OTOH, they have less practical opportunity to apply force.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#60

Post by throwaway894345 »

nightski wrote: post #41
throwaway894345 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this. Our national debate would be so much better if we had better data. Of course, some people aren't going to be persuaded by data and will probably try to condemn/intimidate/impugn-the-motives-of etc anyone who tries to talk about the data, but it would at least help good-faith people have a more productive debate.

I'm not against collecting data. But one problem with mixing data collection and politics is that just by selecting which data to collect and which data to not collect you are implicitly crafting a narrative. It's very subjective, and the data collected will be based on the agenda of the politics at hand. There is no such thing as pure unbiased data collection.

This is certainly true in the abstract (we see a lot of this in homogeneous institutions like universities and newsrooms and it’s a real problem), but I don’t see the risk in this particular case. Further this is a generic argument against empiricism—it’s hard to get unbiased data, but that doesn’t invalidate the enterprise.
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