Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#431

Post by nradov » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:03 AM UTC

leto_ii wrote: post #220

revnode wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are many ways of mitigating the harmful effects of the lock down. State aid targeted directly towards individuals (and not corporations) is a good idea, I think. The same goes for a freeze on mortgage payments, rents, evictions etc. I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Poli…

> I think it's a bad idea to have people with little understanding of economics, but a high sense of moral superiority, fix the problems they create through their incompetence. Not sure who you're referring to here. > Freeze evictions? Landlords go bust. Freeze mortgages? Mortgage servicers go bust. Corporations are legal fictions that do not have a right to life. Let them go bust and save the individuals working for…

It's easy to dodge the questions and act morally superior when you don't personally have to make the hard decisions or accept responsibility for the consequences. Others don't have that luxury.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#432

Post by fomine3 » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:04 AM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #408

cortic wrote: post #286

Deaths per 1M population are significantly higher in Italy(577), Spain(607) and the UK(654) than they are in Sweden(539). And Sweden have been a lot more honest in counting than most countries. There seems to be a drive to discredit the inalienable human rights approach, in this case by implying it was a financial decision; but i have to say i am impressed by the way they have handled this situation, the only respons…

South Korea never had lockdowns, outside of shutting down bars when they traced some superspreading events back to them. The idea that they’re somehow less committed to human rights when they’ve preserved freedom of movement, while avoiding mass deaths, is laughable on its face.

SK traced people in a bar by cellular location data and payment data without permit. I think it's not good for human rights.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#433

Post by hyanaroo » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:05 AM UTC

berdario wrote: post #291

drummer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't like the answer: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kIngGuof9E0

For people that prefer not to waste time on that, like I did... It's a covid19 conspiracy from antivaxxers The first debunking of it I found: https://zdoggmd.com/undercover-nurse/

lol..i dont know how i missed your comment,,i wasted my time on those idiots hehe

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#434

Post by orangecat » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:10 AM UTC

leto_ii wrote: post #166

jlmorton wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Containing and minimizing the effects of a pandemic is just one aspect of what we might call a civilized attitude towards human life. Conversely, not doing so is uncivilized and I might add immoral and irresponsible. The reality is that everyone is prepared to allow others to die for their own convenience. I intentionally phrased that harshly, but it is indisputably true. In the US, 70,000 people died from the infl…

All preventable deaths should be prevented - this is the gold standard. In reality, of course, things don't work out that way. The analogy with a flu season is deeply misleading. The coronavirus has, in half a year, killed more people than the worst flu seasons, with extraordinary measures in place all over the world. It's completely reasonable to assume that without lockdowns we would have had millions of deaths alr…

It may be so. Those people are morally wrong however.

I'm willing to bet that you have taken many unnecessary car trips in your life. By doing so you have increased the risk to other drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians of suffering a fatal accident. Sure, it's a very small increase, but surely that outweighs your selfish desire to visit your friends or go to a movie.

Casually weighing human life against economic cost is not acceptable in what we might call a civilized society.

It's not only acceptable, it's essential in order to make reasonable decisions.

Deaths caused by the regular flu are deeply regrettable and should be prevented as much as possible.

So, quarantines every winter?

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#435

Post by eliaspro » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:13 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #430

bjourne wrote: post #68

You have to look at the excess deaths figures. That is, how many usually dies from January to June in a normal year and compare that to how many extra that died in 2020. For Sweden the excess deaths almost exactly matches the number of Covid deaths, give or take 10%. That is not the case for many other countries. For example, the UK had almost twice the number of excess deaths as Covid deaths in a few weeks in April.…

Extra deaths don't have to come from underreported covid deaths. For example suicides and untreated medical conditions during social distancing and lockdowns can increase the number of deaths.

While reduced traffic and thereby fewer road accidents, fewer transmissions of influenza etc possibly reduce the number of fatalities. This goes both ways and getting really meaningful numbers might be quite hard.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#436

Post by fzeroracer » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:21 AM UTC

jlmorton wrote: post #369

fzeroracer wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's expand on that a bit then. Cancer is a rather big problem. It taxes society quite a bit, costs a lot of money and in general inconveniences quite a lot of people that need to support or help cancer patients. Would you agree then that perhaps it's a better idea to let cancer patients die rather than try and find cures or reduce the chances of dying? Why or why not? If you had cancer but of the curable kind, w…

My point is not that society should take no effort to reduce preventable deaths. Society should do whatever we collectively want to do. Rather, my point was that it's hypocritical to argue that anyone that does not want to continue major disruptions is either immoral, uncivilized, or an absolute monster. Everyone attaches some value X to human life, and some value Z to normal functioning. Not everyone values these th…

I think your argument is nonsense and pedantic to be completely honest.

For example, being against the treatment of the Uighurs in China would be an example of moralizing if we took your argument to the extreme. The government in China simply places lesser value on their lives and since we all attach different values to human lives it's hypocritical to criticize their treatment.

You're avoiding the actual argument at hand in favor of nitpicking the rhetoric. Basically, tone policing. And I don't think tone arguments solve anything over than diversion.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#437

Post by gjs278 » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

pengaru wrote: post #83

It seems obviously wasteful to keep such businesses open where most the paying customers won't be showing up during a pandemic anyways. Why even pay to have the lights on? You need to mothball the operation ASAP and lobby for government assistance for the duration. I was just poking at rough figures last night out of curiosity regarding when the other end of this arrives in terms of 60% herd immunity for the US. Just…

you can also just say fuck it and whoever dies, dies

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#438

Post by nradov » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

alvah wrote: post #403

cma wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New Zealand, who took the opposite strategy of Sweden, they can open now and aren't losing a year.

New Zealand hasn't even begun dealing with Covid-19 yet, unless their plan is to keep the borders closed permanently, or at least until the development of the first vaccine in history for any coronavirus. They are probably the farthest away from reaching herd immunity of any developed country.

Their plan is to require a strict quarantine for all arrivals from overseas. That will be permanent, at least until an effective vaccine is available. It may work, at the cost of their tourism industry.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#439

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #430

bjourne wrote: post #68

You have to look at the excess deaths figures. That is, how many usually dies from January to June in a normal year and compare that to how many extra that died in 2020. For Sweden the excess deaths almost exactly matches the number of Covid deaths, give or take 10%. That is not the case for many other countries. For example, the UK had almost twice the number of excess deaths as Covid deaths in a few weeks in April.…

Extra deaths don't have to come from underreported covid deaths. For example suicides and untreated medical conditions during social distancing and lockdowns can increase the number of deaths.

> suicides and untreated medical conditions during social distancing and lockdowns can increase the number of deaths.

And why did we need social distancing and lockdowns? was it just to have people blow their heads off?

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#440

Post by takeda » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

freyr wrote: post #380

arcticbull wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot know that until after the pandemic is over. The Swedes are betting that nobody in the world will be spared from COVID and therefore the delta in deaths is temporary. They are front-loading it while attempting to keep the economic impacts as low as possible. They anticipate the rest of the world will be contending with shutdowns, re-openings, shutdowns, re-openings, and when all is said and done, the death…

> The Swedes are betting that nobody in the world will be spared from COVID It's also a bet that medical treatments won't improve and a vaccine won't be developed.

or that many people who survive (including younger ones) will be disabled and unable to work