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The Fourth of July

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Re: The Fourth of July

#311

Post by 082349872349872 »

pjc50 wrote: post #192
throwaway0891 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a look at "legal immigrant that lived here their entire lives is a real " the US goes say down in support. It's clear they see it as a purely legal status, not necessarily as acceptance in a society. That survey probably conflates ethnicity and nationality, as many countries use the same word for both. Like Hungary for example. PS: There's no way 50% of Brits think gaining citizenship doesn't make you Bri…

> There's no way 50% of Brits think gaining citizenship doesn't make you British, unless they don't speak English. That's what the word means! That's what you think the word means, but a lot of people use "British" and "English" as ethnicity descriptors, and standard language on survey forms includes "white British" as an ethnicity. I can quite believe that 50% of the population thinks that gaining citizenship still…

I have heard a horrible joke, for which the punch line was "now I'm Blitish." That joke is part of the reason I lump Airstrip One in with Oceania.

(we have our own problems with integration, but as far as I can tell, they diminish greatly in the second generation. Schools are a powerful integrator.)

And to Al-Khwarizmi's point in a neighbouring thread: I much prefer living in a society where people will interrupt their rant to me about "those foreigners" to help a head-cover-wearing dark-skinned mother put her pram on the train and then blithely resume where they left off. That dissonance is hypocrisy in the right direction. "Even a child makes himself known by his doings."

Re: The Fourth of July

#312

Post by filleduchaos »

brokenkebab wrote: post #201
filleduchaos wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American immigration really is the ultimate test of loyalty. Frankly, more and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that it's a bullshit test. Partly because immigration really doesn't have to be all that, and partly because of the global...decline of the United States' image since the turn of the century. When I was a kid moving to the US was the goal, now only a handful of people I know have it at the…

>decline of the United States' image since the turn of the century. That seems to be almost universally accepted among American intelligentsia. But as a guy from outside of US, I dare to say it's false, and also built on a false premise. USA as a culture, or as a political power was never especially popular, except for a few particular places. But as an economuc destination it has been since at least the beginning of…

What gives you the idea that I'm American?

> But as a guy from outside of US, I dare to say it's false, and also built on a false premise

As someone who is also not from the US, I dare to say you've entirely misunderstood what I meant. "Image" there is not referring to agreeability or popularity, it's referring to the near-monopoly on global consciousness as the paragon of the successful West which the US held through the latter half of the 20th century - that's what I'm asserting has been slipping over the past couple of decades (more so in the past eight or so years).

The US still an economic powerhouse, but other economic powerhouses have muscled their way onto the stage (largely China, but also the European Union). It's still a financial powerhouse, but there's also plenty of opportunity and business partnerships to be found elsewhere (and it's becoming less and less necessary to actually migrate to the US to take advantage of its wealth). It's still a cultural powerhouse, but others have achieved incredible international popularity as well (just look at the near mind-boggling spread of Korean pop culture across the globe, for example). Countries like the aforementioned Canada offer a much faster, cleaner track to citizenship, and even places like the UAE and some parts of Eastern Europe or Oceania have their appeal for someone simply looking to improve their passport. Of course, there are also factors like the highly polarised political climate and the inadequacies of the healthcare system that make it less than desirable for someone that doesn't like drama or that has health conditions they need to worry about.

In summary there are so many other options for relocation, many of which are now objectively better for a given individual, that the US is quickly becoming "just another country" for plenty of people opportunity-wise.

Re: The Fourth of July

#313

Post by pydry »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #274
jessaustin wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't assume that Democrats ever consider the best interests of "black neighborhoods". There's very little evidence that's the case. The most they can really claim is that they are often less overt in their racism than the other face of the status quo party.

> Please don't assume that Democrats ever consider the best interests of "black neighborhoods". There's very little evidence that's the case. That's kind of my point. The black vote has gone disproportionately to Democrats for many years and what they get for it is not the change they're promised even when their party controls the government, it's lip service and rage propaganda like "police murders" which can't poss…

>Why are cities burning over "police murders" and not the War on Drugs or school choice?

Probably because it was the most visible and potent symbol of injustice.

If you're the underdog and you need some sympathy it's a little easier to get it by saying "please stop murdering me in my sleep when I've done nothing wrong" than "please stop putting me in jail just because I like to inject a bit of heroin".

In terms of your broader point, it's not like the two wings of the business party have ever represented the underdog.

Re: The Fourth of July

#315

Post by lbschenkel »

endgame wrote: post #25
toby wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where I was naturalized! I had mixed feelings about being required to go to a ceremony even though all my paperwork was done, but in the end it was really special. On the way home I went to the Betabrand factory (which was on Cesar Chavez), told them that I had just gotten naturalized and that I wanted to buy some of their Stars and Stripes pants. They thought it was so cute that they created a special discoun…

Some things are too important to be mere paperwork, and need a ritual to mark them. Graduating university is where this range begins, and taking on the citizenship of another nation is definitely way above that.

Curiously, when getting the Swedish citizenship you get a certificate via mail and that's it. No ceremony required, although you're welcome to attend one after the fact.

Each municipality has to arrange at least one per year. This year it has been cancelled due to COVID-19.

Re: The Fourth of July

#316

Post by tathougies »

ncallaway wrote: post #303
tathougies wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signs saying 'now leaving the USA' are not saying america has failed to live up to its ideals. It's saying... we don't want to be part of America anymore. That's fine, I'm not knocking you, but this is just revisionism. I don't reject criticism as unpatriotic. I was made aware of no-knock warrants from Ms Taylor's unfortunate death, and I am against them. I am in favor of most police reform. I am not in favor of the…

> Signs saying 'now leaving the USA' It's a joke on a written on a piece of cardboard. I guarantee you the vast majority of people there never thought that they had left the territory or jurisdiction of the United States. It never was a secessionist movement. That you think that is probably because you never listened to what the people who were there had to say. That's what I mean when you say you rejected the critic…

In general, I find it difficult to accept criticism from anyone taking over public property, whether it be the Bundies or CHOP. That's not calling for reform, that's terrorizing people. I read their list of demands, including abolishing prisons, hiring doctors based on race, and the abolition of the court system. I then decided that abolishing the courts, police, and racial hiring preferences are so far removed from the American ideals, that these are not 'reforms'. This is a radical departure from anything considered American. This is extremism, not reform.

If you're so confident in their demands, why don't you post them? Here's where I got mine from: https://www.dailydot.com/debug/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomo... . If you don't actually think this is what they want you need to (1) establish why the article I linked is incorrect and (2) establish why whatever list of demands you produced is the 'official' one. According to wikipedia, the demands in the daily dot article were posted on Medium by organizers of the protest.

Here is the authoritative list: https://medium.com/@seattleblmanon3/the-demands-of-the-colle...

Anyone who thinks this is 'reform' and not a radical undoing of everything the US stands for is not seeing what I'm seeing.

Re: The Fourth of July

#317

Post by tathougies »

systemvoltage wrote: post #228
tathougies wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signs saying 'now leaving the USA' are not saying america has failed to live up to its ideals. It's saying... we don't want to be part of America anymore. That's fine, I'm not knocking you, but this is just revisionism. I don't reject criticism as unpatriotic. I was made aware of no-knock warrants from Ms Taylor's unfortunate death, and I am against them. I am in favor of most police reform. I am not in favor of the…

We now have 500 black militia marching with weapons in Georgia: https://amp.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/hlciwl/a_bl... And people are supporting this. We should condemn all forms of violence from both sides - white supremists and the people who counter them with more violence. It’s unbelievable how we allow this on our social media platforms and yet we have a policy for inciting violence. There is a race war…

Well, I don't care if people march with weapons... that is their right. But if they're demanding race-based preferences, abolition of government, etc, then I have no problem calling them what they are -- extremists, not reformers.

Re: The Fourth of July

#318

Post by [deleted] »

jariel wrote: post #269
tptacek wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll debate existential attacks with people who know what the word "existential" means, but not with people who think the term could apply to a Colin Kaepernick tweet.

So I'll ignore the ugly ad-hominem and spell out in very basic terms why Colin's words are very powerful and such narratives will have 'existential' consequences, so that a child could understand. Colin is a very popular figure in America, far more so than most politicians or news anchors, for example. Celebrities such as him have quite immense power to influence popular opinion, if they chose to. If you have a look…

[deleted]

Re: The Fourth of July

#319

Post by phlakaton »

tenuousemphasis wrote: post #129
phlakaton wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who was ugly and prejudiced in the story? The narrator? The Chinese-American judge? Certainly not the veterans waiting for citizenship? They are all America too.

The people who reneged on the promise of granting the Philippine soldiers citizenship.

And by focusing on them and declaring this story to be a horror story, we miss out on an important part of the story too.

This isn't just of academic interest to me. A lot of my friends and family didn't feel much like celebrating America's birthday this weekend, and I completely understand why. But wallowing in that sadness and anger leads to defeatism. I would rather see us embrace the totality of America's history, so that we lift up what we ought to do more of, and remember that, in our attempts to build a better country, we do not fight alone.

Re: The Fourth of July

#320

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cookie_monsta wrote: post #310
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cherrypicking statistics. Using statistics directly responsive to the claim is cherrypicking? It seems like your issue is with the claim, not the statistics. Being murdered by the police is not a central example of the problems of black people and holding it up as such will only cause people to address what you claim is the problem rather than what the actual problems are. > But if we're going to be pedantic it's w…

That's your conception of your country? I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but they're all dead now. All of the slave owners and all of the slaves are dead. Their children are dead. Their children's children are dead. It has been seven generations. Or are we cherrypicking the past for things that mean something today as well?

Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson is dead. Independence is not.

If you want to take down a statue of a Jefferson, go take down a statue of Jefferson Davis. If you can find one.

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