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The Fourth of July

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Re: The Fourth of July

#231

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway0891 wrote: post #151
rayiner wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is great. It’s virtually indistinguishable from America for the typical person. I don’t know where you’re from, but as a Bangladeshi immigrant to the US, but I wouldn’t emigrate to the EU. 76% of Americans say that a naturalized citizen is a “real American” and just 13% disagree: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/... . In France it’s 55-28. In Italy it’s 41-36. There is no place in th…

If you have a look at "legal immigrant that lived here their entire lives is a real " the US goes say down in support. It's clear they see it as a purely legal status, not necessarily as acceptance in a society. That survey probably conflates ethnicity and nationality, as many countries use the same word for both. Like Hungary for example. PS: There's no way 50% of Brits think gaining citizenship doesn't make you Bri…

[deleted]

Re: The Fourth of July

#232

Post by zenpaul »

ketzu wrote: post #177

This reminds me of stories over the last years(?) of afghan/iraqi translators that worked for the US under the promise of citizenship that got massively delayed at least (with immense risk to their lifes). In general, the final granting of citizienship in this story seems mostly symbolic, similar to the exoneration of Alan Turing, just that at least some of the ill treated are still alive. It's good it happened and i…

Yes, This American Life did a great story on this.

"We’ve fought two wars since 9/11. We got help from tens of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans—some were targeted or killed because they helped us. We owe these people. We’ve passed laws that say so. So why has it been so hard for us to get many of them to safety?"

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/607/didnt-we-solve-this-one

Re: The Fourth of July

#233

Post by rtpg »

rayiner wrote: post #77
c3534l wrote: post #72

Given this introduction: > I've re-posted this many times, because it's fundamental to what it means to me to be an American. I was thinking I was in for something uplifting. Instead I got: > In 1946, Congress reneged on FDR's promise. Filipino solders who fought for us and their families were not given their promised citizenship, let alone benefits. ... They waited 44 years, until after most of them were dead. This…

This story isn’t about Truman and the other people who reneged on the promise in 1946–who were all dead by 1992. That’s a very self-centered way to look at this. This is a story about immigrants who loved America so much that they proudly accepted citizenship when it was belatedly conferred to them. What kind of country engenders such love and devotion even in the face of such slights?

tbh that feels like a total misread.

They were treated arbitrarily by the system for decades, and dealt with it as they could. They are happy that it's over and that they are being recognized for how they worked.

The article saying these people are "proud of the nation" despite it is the weirdest take. You build a life somewhere, you enjoy your community, of course you want the stability offered by getting citizenship!

Arbitrary immigration rules and services make you feel miserable about the administration. It's just that many people in these scenarios are able to make the difference between the bureaucracies, the communities, the people themselves, and everything in between. So they're happy about getting recognized, and happy they won't be torn away from the communities. This doesn't transfer to some sort of 'love for the country' full-throated admiration that that phrase usually implies

(This is just my personal read based on how other people talk about going through US immigration, about general things said about mindsets of people in this kind of limbo, and my personal experiences with immigration systems. I am not a mindreader, but popehat isn't either)

Re: The Fourth of July

#234

Post by specialist »

Nice story.

I've been trying to articulate a reason for hope during these chaotic times. Forgive me:

About American Exceptionalism

As a proud citizen of the USA, I do think America is Exceptional.

Our struggle between reactionaries and progressives is done in public, embarrassingly, in full view.

This struggle is done in the large, in the small, in every corner. It never stops.

So, yes, please, criticize America. We've done so much wrong. But also praise. Because we're also doing good, thru fits and starts, and many are trying to do better.

Re: The Fourth of July

#235

Post by jessaustin »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #222
pydry wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a gang running your neighborhood that has a 0.0005% of murdering you (but if they do they'll get away with it) and an even "smaller* chance of protecting you from murder (don't forget that gangs exist for protection as much as power projection) , but is likely to beat, coerce and steal from you with total impunity. The gang is well stocked with small arms, helicopters, tanks, missiles and even anti aircraft w…

> an even "smaller* chance of protecting you from murder Considering how much murder is happening there already, I wouldn't guess that the amount there would be if the police stopped investigating them would be smaller than the existing rate of murders by police. Also, as already mentioned, 0.0005% is the approximate rate at which the police kill black people, not the rate at which they murder them. What do you propo…

Please don't assume that Democrats ever consider the best interests of "black neighborhoods". There's very little evidence that's the case. The most they can really claim is that they are often less overt in their racism than the other face of the status quo party.

Re: The Fourth of July

#236

Post by jessaustin »

stormdennis wrote: post #127
adamsea wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think lots of white collar crime occurs in “white neighborhoods”; it’s just not a priority for law enforcement.

Why aren't the victims of white collar crime in these white neighborhoods out protesting in the streets about the lack of police help, if what you say is true?

Man, nobody in USA wants police around shooting their dogs and kids. Very few of us are wealthy enough to have any control over what police do.

Police in USA are like regular expressions.

Re: The Fourth of July

#237

Post by wincy »

charlescearl wrote: post #226
weiming wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What me and my family talked about today is that, as immigrants, we are so sad how much the "native born" people of the US hate their own country. They seem to never waste an opportunity to remind others of their disdain and it is more and more visible these days e.g. in big news media or on Twitter. Makes me sad and I hope this can change.

If you fail to understand how so many Indigenous and Black people of this country view it with such contempt, I would recommend a few reads. But first I would ask you to consider that whatever greatness it can claim lies not in it’s continued founding myths, but in the many unheralded acts of sacrifice and resistance that so many of it’s marginalized citizens made and continue to make down to this very minute. James…

Who isn’t embracing it? Every person I know on LinkedIn has made some sort of statement, including a few high level managers I went to school with and could call out because they say they’re an “ally” and lived in a “diverse” neighborhood when really they lived in the rich subdivision and went to private school as the neighborhood became “lower class”. But I don’t really know what putting an old classmate on blast on LinkedIn is going to accomplish.

Re: The Fourth of July

#238

Post by cookie_monsta »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #224
cookie_monsta wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patriotism is just as absurd as any other dogma to a person who doesn't share it. I think the US has done some great things as have most countries. It's when you start blindly believing it's perfect that it seems less than rational. > generic wrongs against black people that haven't actually been specified Surely you don't need to hear the list again?

> It's when you start blindly believing it's perfect that it seems less than rational. Who said it was perfect? > Surely you don't need to hear the list again? Is there somewhere they keep this list? I keep getting partial versions. There's the ones where we list bad laws that haven't been on the books in many years, the ones (like police murders) that do literally happen but are dramatically less common than the lev…

Hmmm... let me guess: You got where you are 'cause you were the smartest and worked the hardest and won the race amongst equals?

Re: The Fourth of July

#239

Post by specialist »

yongjik wrote: post #113
hintymad wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and so many people of color came to the US with a suite case and less than $1000 dollars, and then became a successful person in a few years. I certainly did. My wife certainly did. My team, my gardener, and my contractor certainly did. Some people who are from the same school as I went to have even become CEOs of big companies, and some have become famous professors or head of prestigious universities. If anyt…

Focusing on the "cancel culture" is, IMHO, putting the cart in front of the horse. It is a by-product of a society where a cop can murder an African American in broad daylight and (in most cases) suffer no consequences. If you can't trust the society to not murder you , why would you refrain from tearing down anything you don't like? When the society doesn't serve justice, people will implement "justice" with their o…

I honestly have no idea what "cancel culture" is.

I've been fired, expelled, shushed, shunned, ghosted, excluded, ignored, plagiarized, mocked, insulted, attacked, divorced, blocked. Publicly and privately.

Such is the life of the rebel, the truthsayer.

Every nail that sticks up is gonna get pounded down.

Daring to point out the emperor is naked is an unforgivable offense.

This is normal.

Receiving criticism generally means you're saying something interesting.

I'd hate to be so boring that I'm not even worth criticizing.

FYI, Socrates was "canceled", and we're still talking about him.

Further, society should "cancel" the trolls, heathens, hate mongers. That's what society is for. Filters are important.

--

Edit: Counterpoint's "Canceling" is a much smarter, useful, timely treatise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8

Re: The Fourth of July

#240

Post by jessaustin »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #76
_fq4v wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vote Red. Don't mistake not being mentioned with being ignored. Took my parents (Indian) a while to make the switch, but they've never looked back. > We believe in equal opportunity, equal justice, and equal treatment for citizens of every race, background, religion, and creed. Every child, of every color — born and unborn — is made in the holy image of God. (Applause.) > We want free and open debate, not speech code…

Ye gods, no. Never. While the progressives are indeed successfully driving Indians, Asians and other immigrants into the arms of Republicans thanks to their embrace of identity politics and cancel culture, the answer is for the silent majority of mainstream liberals to openly repudiate progressivism, as Obama did, and drive them away from the Democratic Party. Make it clear that the liberal left truly welcomes people…

Is it truly the "progressives" who have the identitarian obsession? From my observations of really leftist folks, they seem most eager to talk about class and economics and peace. (Thanks, Obama!) Meanwhile the presumed presidential candidate, embarrassed as he must be by his racist history, can't decide which woman of color he wants as VP, but he knows she will be a woman of color.
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