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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#491

Post by naasking »

notahacker wrote: post #463
naasking wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It _is_ private property. The companies in question are just exerting their rights. The users agreed to the ToS while signing up, and it's perfectly reasonable for them to cut off your access to their service, as long as it's within the legal bounds of the ToS. So by parity of reasoning, companies that pollute within the bounds of the EPA's restrictions are also perfectly within their legal rights, and so shouldn't…

The implicit argument that an inability to display Confederate flags on others' property generates comparable negative externalities to environmental damage is certainly a bold one, and not, I would argue a better one than the more usual argument that private entities are bound to facilitate freedom of speech by the US constitution. You'd have a tough time persuading me any externalities generated by user generated C…

> The implicit argument that an inability to display Confederate flags on others' property generates comparable negative externalities to environmental damage

Attack the strongest interpretation of an argument, not the weakest. Your choice to focus on this flag incident and ignore the wider context that I described of platforms of all kinds censoring speech and banning people reveals the flaw in this sort of response.

This is but one more example of a trend, and the trend is what should be alarming. One should rightly be suspicious of any claim that a specifically bad storm, or a specific heat wave was caused by global warming, but one should be very alarmed at the growing trend of worsening storms and increasing incidents of heat waves.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#492

Post by [deleted] »

lopmotr wrote: post #413
paulchap wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a public utility and is yet allowed to do whatever it wants because it's _technically_ private property. It _is_ private property. The companies in question are just exerting their rights. The users agreed to the ToS while signing up, and it's perfectly reasonable for them to cut off your access to their service, as long as it's within the legal bounds of the ToS.…

>perfectly reasonable for them to cut off your access to their service, as long as it's within the legal bounds of the ToS. I don't think companies should be directly regulated/penalized for banning users. I don't believe you really meant what you said there. Private companies aren't allowed to ban users because of their race. Do you want them to have that freedom and allow segregation? Or perhaps you only accept tha…

[deleted]

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#493

Post by snowwrestler »

donmcronald wrote: post #429
FireBeyond wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have been made up, but I'm willing to bet that a not insignificant portion of people who are _now_ making it aren't doing so to make a point of saying "everything is just fine". My town had an issue with a cop posing out with a bunch of 3%ers at their gun store. This is in the PNW, and the owner of the store, born and raised in the PNW, has a Confederate flag neck tattoo. This was during some street protests.…

This is the first time I've heard of that. I can just imagine being somewhere loud and giving the ok / perfect symbol to a friend across the room and then being called a racist. Damn, that's scary.

That won't happen; context matters. If you're posing with the confederate flag and a bunch of guns during a BLM protest, and flashing the OK hand symbol, it's going to be taken very differently from just using that same gesture to a friend in a random grocery store or something.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#494

Post by ebg13 »

henriquez wrote: post #421
softwaredoug wrote: post #281

I don’t see how you can make a good faith argument the confederate flag is any different from a swastika. Both represent institutions built solely for racist motives and the subjugation of another race.

Slavery was not the primary factor of conflict in the Civil War. Both Union and Confederate states owned slaves and engaged in slave trade. Conflating the Confederate flag with racism or white supremacy is a popular, but historically ignorant viewpoint.

> Slavery was not the primary factor of conflict in the Civil War.

The historical record written in the confederacy's own words disagrees with you.

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States shows slavery up front and center. These Declarations from five states, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia include the word "slave" 83 times. (https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati...)

Mississippi: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery"

Georgia: "For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery...The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by [the northern Union's] leaders and applauded by its followers. The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of [the northern Union]. For forty years this question has been considered and debated in the halls of Congress, before the people, by the press, and before the tribunals of justice. The majority of the people of the North in 1860 decided it in their own favor. We refuse to submit to that judgment, ..."

South Carolina: "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery."

Texas: "[Texas] was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race ..."

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#495

Post by gamblor956 »

softwaredoug wrote: post #281

I don’t see how you can make a good faith argument the confederate flag is any different from a swastika. Both represent institutions built solely for racist motives and the subjugation of another race.

Both represent institutions built solely for racist motives and the subjugation of another race.

The swastika was used by multiple cultures for thousands of years before it was co-opted by the Nazis.

The confederate flag was created for the sole purpose of committing treason so that some people could enslave others.

Not even remotely the same thing.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#496

Post by holler »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #420
reaperducer wrote: post #283

Why ban the players, and not just the design? I once ran a large online forum and set up a word filter to replace certain phrases with "fluffy bunnies" and other absurdities. It did a remarkable job of improving discourse once the foul-mouthed types realized their hateful messages were being massaged. Microsoft could use some kind of super-cool AI-drived ML-based image recognition to replace the flag with a rainbow f…

>I once ran a large online forum and set up a word filter to replace certain phrases with "fluffy bunnies" and other absurdities. It did a remarkable job of improving discourse once the foul-mouthed types realized their hateful messages were being massaged. Really? When I've seen this done, all that happens is you end up the 'approved' word. Everyone knows what it means though. So I guess if all you care about is the…

that doesn't mean everyone else knows though, and it at least detoxifies the conversation to observers

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#497

Post by gamblor956 »

ebg13 wrote: post #494
henriquez wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery was not the primary factor of conflict in the Civil War. Both Union and Confederate states owned slaves and engaged in slave trade. Conflating the Confederate flag with racism or white supremacy is a popular, but historically ignorant viewpoint.

> Slavery was not the primary factor of conflict in the Civil War. The historical record written in the confederacy's own words disagrees with you. The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States shows slavery up front and center. These Declarations from five states, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia include the word "slave" 83 times. ( https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati…

Indeed, the only role that "state's rights" played in the Civil War was maintaining the rights of the Southern/slave states to allow slavery to continue.

The Confederate states certainly didn't respect the right of the Northern states to terminate slavery, and indeed forced through a number of laws (prior to the Civil war) requiring the Northern states to participate in the return of escaped slaves.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#498

Post by [deleted] »

filleduchaos wrote: post #412
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never been to a southern state? It's been flown ever since the war and has been detached from the war and attached to southern identity. It's part of the culture here.

People keep throwing around words like "heritage", "southern identity" and "culture", but are most often very hard pressed indeed to explain what exactly is the identity or culture that is best represented by what's at the very least a flag of sedition/treason (even if we leave out the racist overtones). I mean, it's not like I'm wholly unsympathetic to failed secessionist states and their symbols/paraphernalia. Peop…

[deleted]

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#499

Post by ars »

filleduchaos wrote: post #344
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

Reminder that the Confederate battle flag was in use for less than five years and solely as an icon of a conflict that was very much about the (rather racist) keeping of chattel slaves. Before trotting out the "it's a symbol of heritage" line, ask yourself exactly what that heritage is.

I will admit that until about 2 years ago I had absolutely no idea the flag was racist. I thought it was simply a southern symbol.

Some comment I saw online made me research it, which then made me aware of other symbolism it has.

So don't be so quick to assume racism in those who fly it.

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