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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#311

Post by notahacker »

ochoseis wrote: post #300
reaperducer wrote: post #283

Why ban the players, and not just the design? I once ran a large online forum and set up a word filter to replace certain phrases with "fluffy bunnies" and other absurdities. It did a remarkable job of improving discourse once the foul-mouthed types realized their hateful messages were being massaged. Microsoft could use some kind of super-cool AI-drived ML-based image recognition to replace the flag with a rainbow f…

I like this idea as long as it’s transparent that’s what’s happening, because it creates less of a wedge and is humorous to most. Booting people off a platform would lead polarizing resentment imho.

I think it'd be funnier if it was done silently like shadowbanning, so the racist troll didn't know why people kept apparently innocently assuming he was gay. But I wouldn't expect MS to go for humour, especially not dealing with sensitive politics and audiences involving a lot of minors.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#312

Post by generalk »

daenz wrote: post #135
generalk wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web, you know. You're free to build whatever discussion platforms you like, or you could just, y'know, publish a website.

But then I control it and can deny the free speech of others. That's not what I'm asking for.

Sure. If I own a website or a newspaper or the patch of ground in front of my house, I get to decide what information goes there.

Are you arguing that there should be some legal provision that says anyone can publish anything on your website, or newspaper, or ground, and you don't get a say in it? That seems unreasonable.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#313

Post by GuiA »

reaperducer wrote: post #283

Why ban the players, and not just the design? I once ran a large online forum and set up a word filter to replace certain phrases with "fluffy bunnies" and other absurdities. It did a remarkable job of improving discourse once the foul-mouthed types realized their hateful messages were being massaged. Microsoft could use some kind of super-cool AI-drived ML-based image recognition to replace the flag with a rainbow f…

I played similar games when I ran forums, but really you're just shuffling the problem around. Bored trolls/extreme ideologues will be delighted to play cat and mouse with your measures, and will feel particularly proud of themselves when they circumvent them creatively.

In the end, you have to decide what outcome you want - using half effective measures hoping that the racists will keep it down, or kicking them out and making it clear that they aren't welcome? You can't have it both ways.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#314

Post by sukilot »

umvi wrote: post #224
i_am_proteus wrote: post #4

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

At the risk of being controversial... I'm going to go ahead and say that Japan doesn't care about racism like America does. Japanese people are extremely racist, but you just don't know it because Japan is 99+% Japanese with But the ethnic minorities that _do_ live there live in segregated apartment complexes, etc. to prevent "mixing with the natives".

Racism exists where genocide has not yet been completed. A "non racist" society is rarely a historical role model.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#315

Post by paulchap »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

> I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a public utility and is yet allowed to do whatever it wants because it's _technically_ private property.

It _is_ private property. The companies in question are just exerting their rights. The users agreed to the ToS while signing up, and it's perfectly reasonable for them to cut off your access to their service, as long as it's within the legal bounds of the ToS. I don't think companies should be directly regulated/penalized for banning users. I do think however, that people should be more conscious of what they're signing up for. Consumer protection law should protect consumers, not their convenience.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#316

Post by heymijo »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

I am obtusely aware that Germany has banned hate speech and imagery relating to Nazis yet remains a democracy with mostly free speech.

Am I wrong?

If no, how have they accomplished this?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#317

Post by greenie_beans »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

They're banning a hateful symbol. That's totally fair game for censorship.

I don't know where you come from, but in my home state where we JUST THIS WEEK removed the Confederate emblem from our state flag, only people with real hatred towards non-white people use that symbol.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#318

Post by Hamuko »

lopmotr wrote: post #290
Hamuko wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't really understand that. Would they also ban anyone for adding the insignia for United States Army Air Forces? What about writing "Enola Gay" on the side of a car?

Imperial Japan was extremely cruel to the people in the places it invaded - which was a lot. Human experimentation, massacring civilians, torture, comfort women. They were basically the Nazis of Asia. They also didn't apologize for it, still glorify their brutal heroes and teach disinformation about it to their schoolkids. Chinese people still have a strong anti-Japanese feeling.

I don't exactly consider dropping two atomic bombs on top of hundreds of thousands of civilians an act of kindness. Americans also don't exactly apologize for their acts, still glorify their brutal heroes (and even people who fought against their own country). There's probably a whole laundry list of war crimes (and things that really should be war crimes) that the US has committed. And there are a lot of anti-American feelings across the globe.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#319

Post by lopmotr »

shultays wrote: post #265

Interestingly hammer and sickle is not in the list

The list of "bad" ideas blows this way and that with the wind. It's not about what it was used for in the past or how much bad was done. It's about whatever mobs with pitchforks demand. They can always come up some reason like "used for hate" or "causes offense" or "safe environment" but they don't really mean it. Those are just rationalizations for organizations making decisions out of fear.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#320

Post by jasode »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

>I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a public utility and is yet allowed to do whatever it wants because it's technically private property. If platforms want to censor,

For some topics such as the Confederate flag, you don't even have to complicate the discussion with "private company vs public utility".

E.g., tax-payer government funded public schools also banned kids from wearing the Confederate flag on shirts because they were "disruptive". In some cases, the free speech advocates fought the rule and yet the ban was upheld by courts even on appeal:

https://www.google.com/search?q=confederate+shirt+banned+pub...

In other words, even if the government nationalized Microsoft into a state-owned enterprise, we'd still be having this debate about free speech being censored.

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