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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#211
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't there a famous racing car It wasn't a racing car, and it was in a television show, and so what if there was? If there were a famous car from 1940s Germany with a nazi flag on it, does that make symbolically broadcasting nazism today fine behavior? The confederacy was a regime constructed explicitly to defend the practice of slavery. ( https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati... )

The inability of HN commenters to grasp current cultural norms and the sensitivities of the people around them astounds me.

This experience, which you've described well in just one sentence, is actually a consequence of how the site is structured. You might say "well, structure it differently then, so it doesn't suck". But giving up that structure would be bad, because although it is far from pleasant, it contains something that's both valuable and increasingly rare. What we need to do instead is find our way through the difficulty without cracking up. That's the question facing the community.

HN is divided much as society at large is divided, just like any large-enough population sample. It's also a highly international site. Cultural norms vary more than people assume they do, especially when you factor in the international aspects. Since the debate and struggle right now is around just what "current cultural norms" ought to be, it isn't surprising that commenters disagree.

The most important thing to realize about HN is that it's a non-siloed site. Everyone is in one big room here. That means you're far more likely to run into people who hold opposing views on these topics, and they may be the very same people who you agree with about other topics. This is very different from internet environments where users self-select into tribes (silos) and where the tribes are clearly identifiable. There, you know what awfulness to expect from the other side, you can dress up in the battle gear of the internet before confronting them, and you know that your own team will have your back.

On HN, by contrast, you don't know what awfulness to expect, because the tribes are not identifiable and the community actually functions relatively well some of the time (don't get me wrong, it's the internet and there are a ton of problems—but, relatively speaking). This creates a feeling of normalcy and so people expect this place to be normal ("current cultural norms", as you say). Some of the time it does indeed feel that way, and then—blam, you run into something awful and hideous, something anything but normal, which you did not expect to encounter here and which hit you when your defenses were down.

This comes across as a nasty shock. After a few of these shocks, the mind inevitably adjusts its view of the community from "normal place" to "painful nasty place", with the sense "HN is not what I thought it was". I'm going to guess that this is the reason why you use the phrase "astounds me".

In other words, we're in a paradoxical situation where the HN community is objectively less divided and nasty than other places on the internet (which "solve" or, more precisely, defer this problem by segregating into silos), but it's still divided and nasty enough to create unexpectedly painful experiences, which makes it feel more divided and nasty.

This has probably always been the biggest issue for HN's long-term survival, but it has taken years to begin to realize it, and of course current social pressures are intensifying and highlighting it. It's not clear yet what we can really do, let alone if it can survive in the long run, but from the beginning this place has been an experiment in staving off self-destruction for as long as possible (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...).

I wrote another thing about the shock experience here if anyone is interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard a lot of young people in my country saying "you have freedom of speech, you can say what you want, but then you will face the consequences". Which makes me think they don't really know what freedom of speech is.

I don't follow. It sounds like they know exactly what it is. In some places, you can be prevented from saying something that others do not want you to say.

If you are going to be punished in any way for what you say, you don't have freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean that there's nobody physically preventing you from talking.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#214

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

Swastika is a sacred symbol in Hinduism. The original inspiration for Hitler was hooked cross. You will commonly find swastika painted across homes in India.

> Swastika is a sacred symbol in Hinduism. The original inspiration for Hitler was hooked cross.

No, the inspiration was the Indian swastika. Same reason he wanted to call himself "Aryan".

(The swastika is also a sacred symbol in Buddhism, for reference. One day someone will petition to have 卐 removed from the relevant Chinese Unicode block.)

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#215
post #117

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

Wow, rising sun flag is used in many games, since Japan is huge on games. First one that comes to mind is Street Fighter (E. Honda/Ryu stages and designs). This gon be interesting.

This is what I thought about too. I recently played sf2turbo via the 25th anniversary collection on the switch.

Seeing the rising sun flag as a big part of the stage background did legitimately make me feel uncomfortable, knowing the atrocities committed under that flag.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#216
post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

If your question is “where do you draw the line”, the answer is always somewhere.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web, you know. You're free to build whatever discussion platforms you like, or you could just, y'know, publish a website.

> Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web Actually, the only entities with any capacity of publishing content on the WWW are a few tier 1 ISPs. If you push that rope you will discover that your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers, and their ISP, and their ISP's ISP. If the end-state of that evolution is every entit…

> your capacity to publish anything you want is restricted by the policy of whoever hosts your servers, and their ISP, and their ISP's ISP.

this is obvious and anyone still unironically pushing the "just make your own" narrative is aware of it but has no other comeback

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#218
For those who are curious about the confederate flag - that is displayed, that isn't the confederate flag. It's the Battle flag. I know everyone wants the confederate flag removed but that isn't the confederate flag which is being removed.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#219
post #92
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies should be free to regulate hate speech on their platforms. The government should not regulate speech in the public domain. While I agree, please direct me to where I can speak "in the public domain" online.

For example there is Parler, an alternative to Twitter. While it is not a state company, it promotes free speech. They claim "Our content is moderated based off the FCC and the Supreme court of the United States which enables free expression without violence and a lack of censorship.".

To the surprise of no one who isn’t a hopeless naif, Parler has turned out to ban and censor far more than Twitter ever did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23684512

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#220
post #138
post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

I'll give you my personal standard: Did they act or campaign to make things worse for their fellow man (and woman)? In other words, did they simply act in the context of their time period, as other men in their position would, or did they specifically act to curtail the rights of others. This makes it very easy for me to condemn symbols of the Confederacy, because they specifically acted to preserve slavery. If anyon…

offending other people should never be the standard. By your definition we should ban South Park because it offends nearly everyone, so fsck your sensitivities.

The confederate flag should be banned because the kkk and other white supremacists adopted it, rebranded it as their own flag, and most importantly, no one cared to stop them. Try that with the Irish flag and see what the Irish have to say about it.

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