MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars • Hacker News Board

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#141

Post by Crosseye_Jack » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

generalk wrote: post #104

daenz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies should be free to regulate hate speech on their platforms. The government should not regulate speech in the public domain. While I agree, please direct me to where I can speak "in the public domain" online.

Companies aren't the only entities allowed to publish content on the World Wide Web, you know. You're free to build whatever discussion platforms you like, or you could just, y'know, publish a website.

While true if you run something small that goes unnoticed, we still have gatekeepers once you get to a certain size. Good luck taking payments if Mastercard blacklists you.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#142

Post by jammaloo » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

proc0 wrote: post #128

sacks2k wrote: post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

They're just trying to ban something that may seem like it has logic so people accept it and normalize it. American flag might be next, and yes I would not be surprised if Mexican flag as well because of the "evil spaniards". This whole thing has no logic behind it, it's just hate and evil, and it has always started with censorship. Hence the FIRST amendment.

I'm curious where you fall on the spectrum of this. Do you think that it's good, for example, for people to be displaying Nazi Flags in a racing game? Or if they showed graphic depictions of violence/gore. Where does your line fall, on what is and isn't okay to show?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#143

Post by ACodeMonkey » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

gentleman11 wrote: post #52

I am not very familiar with the American civil war. The way people talk about it seems weird to me though: it is as though the entire southern United States were overcome by an irresistible race hatred and they started a war in order to ensure their white supremacy- but mostly out of ignorance of the morals of this. I have a hard time believing the entire southern United States was only fighting for the right to own…

The rationale for succession had slavery as a primary factor, but the war was fought for the right of States to leave the union if they wished. Federalism and states rights sentiments are tied up with the symbol of the flag, though it might be more accurately framed as anti-federal government than pro-state government. Importantly though I'm not denying that there are also those who use the flag as a symbol of racial animosity, nor are the two groups completely separate.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#144

Post by mikepurvis » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #54

mikepurvis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a point which is beyond the confederate flag. There may well be a slippery slope somewhere along this road, but it's not here. Gun advocates resist common sense reforms with the same logic, but lots of military weapons (minigun, flamethrower, rocket launcher, etc) are already either banned or highly regulated and have been for years without anyone's rights having been trampled.

What do you think of the counterargument about statues? A few years ago, the idea that removing Confederate statues might lead to removing statues of founding fathers was considered an absurd slippery slope argument; a few days ago, the New York Times published an opinion piece arguing that statues of George Washington should be torn down. How can we be confident that this isn't a step down that same slope?

The NYT opinion page is hardly a barometer of broad public consensus— see the recent scandal of the Tom Cotton "send in the military" piece.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#145

Post by gentleman11 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #139

gentleman11 wrote: post #52

I am not very familiar with the American civil war. The way people talk about it seems weird to me though: it is as though the entire southern United States were overcome by an irresistible race hatred and they started a war in order to ensure their white supremacy- but mostly out of ignorance of the morals of this. I have a hard time believing the entire southern United States was only fighting for the right to own…

It was similar in some ways to the unification conflicts happening in Europe in the 19th century. The contentious issues, slavery and tariffs, forced a disagreement about the nature of the Union. There was not a shared sense of identity across the United States, so when Virginia, for example, seceded, Virginians sided with their state. Generally, only the more cosmopolitan upper classes felt conflict between a duty t…

Any particular account you would recommend?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#146

Post by TMWNN » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

gentleman11 wrote: post #52

I am not very familiar with the American civil war. The way people talk about it seems weird to me though: it is as though the entire southern United States were overcome by an irresistible race hatred and they started a war in order to ensure their white supremacy- but mostly out of ignorance of the morals of this. I have a hard time believing the entire southern United States was only fighting for the right to own…

Southern states by and large seceded over fear that the northern states, which outnumbered the south, would outlaw slavery throughout the country. That's clear from most of the declarations that southern states passed to formally state their reasons for leaving the Union. So it's not true, as sometimes claimed, that the primary reason for the war was "states's rights" (well, yes, but the right of a US state to maintain slavery), or "northern capitalists keeping the agrarian south under their heel".

But that doesn't explain why the average southern soldier—who didn't own any slaves (that was for the rich planter elite minority), who probably personally knew and possibly were friends with slaves, fought and died for the Confederacy. Claiming that "the entire southern United States were overcome by an irresistible race hatred" is as ridiculous (not saying that you are claiming that; you recognize that such a statement is silly) as stating that "every German soldier in WW2 was a Nazi", which was incorrect on both a literal sense (in terms of being a Nazi Party member) and a figurative sense.

Ultimately the average southern soldier fought and died for the same reason the average German soldier did: For his home (and homeland), his family, his friends and comrades, his way of life. Nothing more or less grand than that.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#147

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

vimy wrote: post #134

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think of the counterargument about statues? A few years ago, the idea that removing Confederate statues might lead to removing statues of founding fathers was considered an absurd slippery slope argument; a few days ago, the New York Times published an opinion piece arguing that statues of George Washington should be torn down. How can we be confident that this isn't a step down that same slope?

Statues of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and even Lincoln have already been attacked by the mob. Mount Rushmore is now a symbol of white supremacy. The Emancipation Memorial, paid for by former slaves, is also considered racist now. Boston is going to remove it. The slippery slope has turned into a slide with no end in sight. https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/boston-art-commissio...

From your own link:

> But Blacks weren’t part of the design process, and the memorial’s central visual takeaway — a Black man kneeling before his white savior — has had people cringing for years.

They paid for it, but didn't get to have input on how it'd look. Seems like the precise sort of thing folks are upset about.

Rushmore was a treaty violation from the very beginning, and Native Americans occupied it as far back as 1971 in protest.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#148

Post by user982 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

sacks2k wrote: post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

> I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it?

The Alamo battle was fought because your Texian relatives revolted against Mexico's abolishment of slavery.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#149

Post by ebg13 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

beaned wrote: post #82

mikepurvis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a point which is beyond the confederate flag. There may well be a slippery slope somewhere along this road, but it's not here. Gun advocates resist common sense reforms with the same logic, but lots of military weapons (minigun, flamethrower, rocket launcher, etc) are already either banned or highly regulated and have been for years without anyone's rights having been trampled.

Reminds me of when Trump a while ago (before the recent George Floyd stuff) was commenting on statues being torn down, and commented something like, "next they'll go for George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, where does it end?" John Oliver did a bit on it answering "Somewhere. It ends somewhere," implying that he was an idiot, that it was a stupid comment, and everybody laughed. Now we're here and it has actually h…

> figures saying the western portrayal of Christ is systemic racism

You mean the ones where he's shown as west-european white? I suppose we could bother thinking about why he looks like that in those portrayals when he definitely wouldn't have in real life.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#150

Post by matwood » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

gentleman11 wrote: post #52

I am not very familiar with the American civil war. The way people talk about it seems weird to me though: it is as though the entire southern United States were overcome by an irresistible race hatred and they started a war in order to ensure their white supremacy- but mostly out of ignorance of the morals of this. I have a hard time believing the entire southern United States was only fighting for the right to own…

There was hatred for sure, but also the fact that the entire southern economy ran on slavery. So there were also economic reasons, but they were based around the free labor provided by slavery.