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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#121

Post by cm2187 »

happytoexplain wrote: post #86
thepangolino wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is that it's a pretty slippery slope. Is this a hate symbol? If it is and it gets banned, will you also consider whatever other symbol gets co-opted?

>it's a pretty slippery slope. I disagree. >Is this a hate symbol? I believe so. >will you also consider whatever other symbol gets co-opted? Yes, if it does get co-opted to the extent of replacing its original meaning. Luckily that only happens rarely. That's just how symbols and communication work - it's an unfortunate and unavoidable reality. The swastika is the most obvious example.

I think a photo of the Che is a hate symbol. It is glorifying a psychopath who killed without a second thought for a genocidal ideology. That's my opinion. So do I get to get it removed everywhere because it offends me?

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#122

Post by surfpel »

eumenides1 wrote: post #84
i_am_proteus wrote: post #4

Interesting that the Japanese rising sun flag is mentioned alongside the swastika and the stars and bars; the rising sun flag remains in contemporary use by the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force.

Not really. The rising sun flag is the flag of the imperial Japanese army, the one that allied with Nazi Germany. They were brutal and deserve to be regarded in a similar manner to Nazi Germany. The Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force flag is problematic. It's like Mississippi or Georgia's state flags before 2020, it's a call back to things that should be left in the history books.

The rising sun flag was adopted before the turn of the century many years before the war. The confederate and nazi flags were used explicitly for those hateful movements (post civil war racism and nazis). These are quite different.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#123

Post by s9w »

JoshTko wrote: post #88
daenz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies should be free to regulate hate speech on their platforms. The government should not regulate speech in the public domain. While I agree, please direct me to where I can speak "in the public domain" online.

You can create your own website and and host it yourself.

We have all seen how instantly hosters, domain registrars and payment processors don't care for laws.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#124

Post by egypturnash »

jaywalk wrote: post #55
namdnay wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most European countries today? This slope doesn’t seem particularly slippy

You mean countries where you can be arrested for a tweet that offends someone? Yeah, no thanks.

Somehow I feel like this is a milder version of "an armed society is a polite society".

Everyone has a gun? Rational people are theoretically less likely to try and piss people off, because they know everyone is carrying.

It's super-easy to sue people for hate speech? Rational people are theoretically much more likely to consider their words, because they know everyone can get their ass fined and possibly imprisoned.

(The obvious problems are of course that not everyone is a perfect rational being with no emotions or extenuating circumstances, and that there are people who will immediately start trying to game any system for profit - goading someone into doing something that gives you an excuse to punish them for Bad Behavior, whether via the gun in your pocket or the State's justice, is an old, old tactic.)

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#125

Post by justinsaccount »

magnusmagnusson wrote: post #76
pathseeker wrote: post #7

Honest question. For those of you happy that these censorship policies are being implemented by companies in reaction to pressure, do you believe that the ideal end-goal would be 'anti hate speech' laws like those of Germany?

"This slope isn't particularly sloppy" is the single best reply capturing the delusion and dishonesty of the people who celebrate the limiting of speech and expression heere. At least admit it proudly, that you are placing a punishment on vocalbulary and imposing self-censorship and thus invading privacy too. All these masks attempting to cover-up reduction of politics to friend/enemy distinction are even more insult…

> reduction of politics to friend/enemy distinction

There was a war about this. The enemies of the United States waved that flag.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#126

Post by gruez »

ideals wrote: post #108
daenz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies should be free to regulate hate speech on their platforms. The government should not regulate speech in the public domain. While I agree, please direct me to where I can speak "in the public domain" online.

Start your own blog. The internet isnt just SV companies. There's nothing stopping you from creating your own platform that espouses your ideals.

I think his point is that at the end of the day, you're going to be dependent on someone. With a self hosted blog you're dependent on at least an ISP and registrar, both of which are private entities.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#127

Post by mikepurvis »

beaned wrote: post #82
mikepurvis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a point which is beyond the confederate flag. There may well be a slippery slope somewhere along this road, but it's not here. Gun advocates resist common sense reforms with the same logic, but lots of military weapons (minigun, flamethrower, rocket launcher, etc) are already either banned or highly regulated and have been for years without anyone's rights having been trampled.

Reminds me of when Trump a while ago (before the recent George Floyd stuff) was commenting on statues being torn down, and commented something like, "next they'll go for George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, where does it end?" John Oliver did a bit on it answering "Somewhere. It ends somewhere," implying that he was an idiot, that it was a stupid comment, and everybody laughed. Now we're here and it has actually h…

The Lincoln statue is kind of a special case, and it's obvious why from looking at it:

https://www.wcvb.com/article/boston-art-commission-unanimous...

As far as the others, clearly there is an Overton shift happening here, and that will embolden some advocates to make more extreme demands. Is that bad? Probably not, but I think most statues of Washington are likely safe for at least another generation or two, and if they get moved from the public square into museums at that later point, well, that's something the future will have decided on.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#128

Post by proc0 »

sacks2k wrote: post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

They're just trying to ban something that may seem like it has logic so people accept it and normalize it. American flag might be next, and yes I would not be surprised if Mexican flag as well because of the "evil spaniards". This whole thing has no logic behind it, it's just hate and evil, and it has always started with censorship. Hence the FIRST amendment.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#129

Post by hamandcheese »

I’m not convinced that everyone who displays a Confederate flag is doing so out of hate (despite the history behind the symbol). It seems classifying it as a hate symbol and banning it only gives it more power as a hate symbol, and will also upset plenty of non-raciest southerners in the process.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#130

Post by jammaloo »

sacks2k wrote: post #26

I'm curious why the confederate flag should get special treatment. I had relatives murdered in the Alamo. Should the Mexican flag get banned because I'm offended by it? Every flag represents a group that has been in the losing side of a war and killed opposing citizens or soldiers. Yet, those flags aren't banned.

The confederacy was founded to fight for slavery, because they believed people of colour to be inferior. It's the same reason we give "special treatment" to the flags of the Nazis, as their main goal and purpose was genocide.

Every country has committed various atrocities, but their flags do not necessarily represent those atrocities.

This isn't about the Confederates losing the war, and it's not about the southern states. No-one is asking for removal of all flags from the southern states. it's about what the confederacy stood and fought for. White supremacy and slavery.

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