Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#121

Post by HenryKissinger » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

game_the0ry wrote: post #86

I don't think moving tech labor form US workers to Indian workers will have the desired effect that corporate decision makers are hoping for. For one, good tech workers are hard to find anywhere. A candidate needs a range of attributes to be effective at this type of work. That type of talent is hard enough to find in the western world, it will likely be just as hard to find in the east. Two, Indian tech labor isn't…

It's been interesting so far to see almost every prediction about the future meet unforeseen obstacles.

"We'll have flying cars!" (Need runways, air traffic control, can't let drivers steer their flying car themselves, too dangerous, etc.)

"Work will be outsourced and we will lose our jobs!" (Your comment)

"Artificial intelligence will replace humans and revolutionize everything!" (AI is really hard and nowhere as promising as once believed)

"With gains in productivity, we'll all work 10 hours of week and spend the rest of time writing poetry and traveling!" (We'll just increase total economic activity by making you work the same number of hours)

"The Internet will put an end to ignorance by giving everyone free access to the total sum of knowledge in existence" (Human biases are really entrenched and can't be changed by any amount of information)

I wonder how many other futuristic predictions being made right now will age like milk.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#122

Post by rootusrootus » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #92

game_the0ry wrote: post #86

I don't think moving tech labor form US workers to Indian workers will have the desired effect that corporate decision makers are hoping for. For one, good tech workers are hard to find anywhere. A candidate needs a range of attributes to be effective at this type of work. That type of talent is hard enough to find in the western world, it will likely be just as hard to find in the east. Two, Indian tech labor isn't…

Maybe Indian tech labor isn't that cheap. But Silicon Valley tech labor is very expensive (perhaps overpriced!). Maybe the latter is the key factor...

More remote work, and hire outside of SV then. There's a pretty big benefit to keeping the dev teams in time zones with a good amount of overlap. Probably the second biggest factor in our difficulty getting good results from our dev teams in Hyderabad is the 12 hour offset. The single biggest is that if you go to India looking to save money, you're going to be in for some pain. Good talent has a cost no matter where in the world it is.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#123

Post by itsmefaz » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

Though Uber requires great engineering backbone, the future doesn't seem to be bright on the engineering front.

This seems like the best decision Dara could take at the time being and if Uber is able to recover from this mess all well and good.

A good point taken below is the shift from product-oriented to operations-oriented company. I guess this transition is long-overdue and expected to make sustainable profits.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#124

Post by collyw » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

fahrradflucht wrote: post #95

collyw wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would that translate into a "40k in your pocket" salary? I have heard Germans mention 50% tax before, but no idea how it is implemented.

For a single without kids, 50%, meaning 40k in your pocket, is a good rule of thumb, yes.

So an 80k salary in Germany involves the employee paying 50% and the company paying another 20k on top of that?

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#125

Post by addicted44 » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #48

bberenberg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Assuming you can get the same (or similar) talent in India instead of the US" I am not aware of anyone who has succeeded at this in practice. Do you know anyone?

I've had mixed results. Romania has been great. Pakistan was /terrible/... India has been a mixed bag. Firms tend to be terrible. Individuals tend to be good to great. The great devs tend to move here as soon as they're able.

Yeah, that's why the idea that H1Bs need to be restricted will help with US employment is remarkably stupid.

There are a few companies that abuse (abused?) the H1B program but that was always a small but visible percentage, but more importantly, actions taken under the Obama administration had drastically reduced the abuse.

The much greater percentage are employees who studied in the US, or worked with companies in India and then had them transfer to the US. Eliminating the H1B visa simply means that they will now do the same work from India or Canada instead, further reducing the number of jobs in the US.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#126

Post by marnett » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #80

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but Netherlands employees won't do what they're told and are basically unfireable. Not quite as bad as Belgium but not far off.

What do you mean with won't do what they're told ? Disclaimer : am Dutch.

Likely the OP means they will not submissively do exclusively what they are told; in a no questions asked, military-style command and control sort of way. More specifically, will answer to ridiculous demands of “we need this by tomorrow.”

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#127

Post by rdiddly » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #18

atonse wrote: post #2

It's hard to ignore the siren song as a business person of comparing your 300k a year engineers to a senior engineer that costs $80k in India (regardless of the potential hidden costs of cultural and time zone differences). This gap should probably narrow as more remote work becomes normal, and more people move out of the Valley and can actually live decently on 150k, rather than 300k.

Why should those engineers be paid $150k if they're generating more than $300k of value? For that matter, why should an Indian engineer be paid $80k if they're generating $300k of value minus whatever hidden costs you want to assign (surely not $220k)?

Nobody is paid exactly what they're worth, because what would be the point? The company can break even like that by not hiring anybody.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#128

Post by tasogare » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

game_the0ry wrote: post #86

I don't think moving tech labor form US workers to Indian workers will have the desired effect that corporate decision makers are hoping for. For one, good tech workers are hard to find anywhere. A candidate needs a range of attributes to be effective at this type of work. That type of talent is hard enough to find in the western world, it will likely be just as hard to find in the east. Two, Indian tech labor isn't…

A family member works in Inda from 3+ years as management / engineering in an Indian branch of an European company. The upper management thinks a worker is a worker, except in India they are cheaper. Pro-tip: it’s not. You get what you’re paying for. The local standard of professionalism is way from away of the Western one (baseline: Germany). An example: recruiting. Indians, because they live in a very competitive society, will have no shame ok cheating on certification and lie on résumé.

Normal Western approach: take everything at face value. Local background-aware people approach: understand everything as two-three level below what they are pretending. Not that they are not skilled workers, but you have to count for the lying inflation (e.g. 30% of Pakistanis fly pilots got their license thanks to someone else).

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#129

Post by eldavido » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:53 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #52

gorpomon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is well-trodden ground as far as discussion around here goes. The common points pro and con always come up: is the quality the same (some say yes, some say no), is co-location or time-zone location important (same parenthetical), what $ amount is ethical to pay, whom is it more ethical to pay (are you a nationalist or a global citizen, etc), what's sustainable, many more etc's. I've decided that's it's a persona…

> We should really divorce politics from this discussion. that's a common technical people pitfall. politics permeates society, and ignoring it is only to your own detriment exposing you form exploitation of those whom play the political game, of which you most assuredly participate in, whether you want an active role in it or not.

Not only does it permeate, but this particular issue touches on a much larger, and more timely discussion: the extent to which companies should be loyal to a nation, and its citizens.

In one view, the one I had for a long time, companies are free agents. They can set up where they want, come and go as they please, hire and fire at will. They add value by creating jobs and profit and society should be thankful for that.

A different view, one I hear a lot in the more intellectual conservative circles (Brexit and some Trump supporters), is that companies have a duty to their people, and society at large. They should train people (through apprenticeship, rather than strip-mining universities / the local market), try to promote stability, avoid huge disruptive layoffs, etc.

I used to think the first but have come around to the second a bit.

Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate

#130

Post by game_the0ry » Thu, Jul 02, 2020, 2:53 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #120

game_the0ry wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue there is no such thing as overpriced labor when its the market that sets the price. You will never get a Mercedes for the price of a Honda. So be skeptical when a politician or mega corp manager utters the words "labor shortage" - there is no such thing.

Sure, though it takes a bit of time for the actors to become conscious they'll get the same value at a lower price.

They've had plenty of time and they were plenty conscious. And here I am getting paid well for writing code without a comp sci degree.