California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste • Hacker News Board

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#521

Post by anandrm » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #484

anandrm wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets put it this way , you guys had the privilege. AFAIK atleast 2 generations ahead with the reading and writing compared to other communites. Please dnt pick exceptions here. The community had a headstart privilege access to reading and writing. If you look at the data of professors here in US and the first generation of guys in US doing higher studies you know. So you have a community base here . Its the same with…

> AFAIK atleast 2 generations ahead with the reading and writing compared to other communites Can you explain then why Dr. Ambedkar asked for only 10 years of caste-based reservations and to be done with it after that? Did he not know of this statistic when he asked for the reservation to be scrapped after 10 years: https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/columnists/290917/ti... ? We continued to have caste-based res…

This is 2020 ,we are still talking about upper caste management suppressing lower caste in USA. If there has been 70+ years of equality driving measures taken , then this news shouldnt be there.I hope you understand how authority works in India, the Upper caste is already in decision making positions when this movement started 70 years back, i can very well imagine what would have happened. I m not supporting reservations , but there is always a benefit of doubt thats for the suppressed ones.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#522

Post by istjohn » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

silasrude wrote: post #496

rutherblood wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO Indian parents are some of most sly people to walk earth. They coerce, emotionally blackmail and are obsessive about controlling their child's lives be it professional, educational, romantic decisions. Sometimes I think the quote "Most parents would do anything for their child except let them be who they are" is specifically made for the Indian boomer generation.

Don't suppose you have ever heard the trope about jewish mothers? I think parents everywhere... :)

My parents are not like this at all, so it's not universal.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#523

Post by pseudonymousgun » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

throwaway781341 wrote: post #97

paloaltokid wrote: post #38

I'm a very white guy living in California and I often get the impression that caste is something that Indian folks living here are aware of amongst each other, but they don't really discuss it with white people. On some level it feels to me like it's something Indian folks don't share because they feel it would be misunderstood (which makes a lot of sense). Or maybe it's a kind of "not airing out the laundry in publi…

I just wanted to mention few things because they need be said. I hope it helps. Caste system and Varna system in India are 2 different things. Many people including Indians fail to understand this. Caste system and what was written in Manusmruti (some guidelines book for Hindus) was debated even in ancient times but some high-caste-people did take advantage of it and it went screwed up in-between years. Caste system…

I get what you were explaining, but i disagree with these parts

> How would you expect the people in those times to be okay with touching those who used to clean up toilets by hand, carry the waste on their backs?

The trouble is, this wasn't something people chose to do by choice - it was thrust upon them initially and eventually conditioned to accept as "their duty" to the society through religious conditioning. (Read Gandhi's commentary justifying this type of work)

There is enough written about this and if you are interested you can easily look up about this online and in libraries.

> traditionally descendants did the same business as it was easily taught to kids

Even this was thrust through years of conditioning my friend. They were not "allowed" to take up any other profession - they could be dead, if they dared to do this. The references for this go far back to scriptures and other religious literature my friend.

> dalit's were not working in lower level because they were untouchables, but they were untouchables because they worked in the lower levels

Not true, read the comment above, they were forced into lower level work initially.

> Indian society let Mr. B R Ambedkar (who was born Dalit) to write constitution of India - that speaks volumes.

You haven't read Ambedkar have you ? :) Indian society didn't "let" Mr. B R Ambedkar to write the constitution, he rose to that position through sheer intellectual power! He was very very ahead of his times my brother! He faced many many challenges throughout his rise due to his origins being from lower class, he rose in spite of it.

A man of such calibre, resigned when in a position of power because he didn't believe in certain ideas put forth for discussion while making amendments to the constitution etc. He felt that would jeopardize the efforts he had put in to make the constitution equal for all - and undermine democracy! Such was the man!

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#524

Post by wobbly_bush » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

tootsandboots wrote: post #520

wobbly_bush wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different castes represent differen…

You can modify the test to give them two choices, a partner that is of higher caste and another that is of lower caste - all things being equal (wealth, health, even skin color). If they were truly non-discriminatory, and only cared about preserving their "culture", they should reject either one with equal probability.

And that is what happens in reality. Among all the inter-caste marriage discussions not all happen in the high vs low distinction, there are several where there is no higher one or lower one (like say a north Indian marrying a south India, like in the book 2 states) but still there is chance of rejection of the marriage.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#525

Post by arkades » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #471

arkades wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. The AAP has waffled for years, putting their thumb on the scales of every guideline to include a “cultural factor” to the cost- benefit analysis which is literally “but people really want this for religious reasons.” They generally aimed for neutral, until the 2012 task force statement. Accordingly, if you look up their most recent position statement (2012) they headline with “benefits outweigh risks.” B…

I agree there's some room for argument as to whether it should be recommended or not, but - The headline includes "benefits outweigh risks" - The text notes that "the benefits of circumcision are sufficient to ... warrant third-party payment for circumcision of male newborns" I got downvoted to claiming they said "the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks". I'm sorry, but... they do. Literally and unambiguously…

Their statement for "third party payment" is industry jargon for "don't ban it," because Americans equate "uninsured service" with "unavailable service." Outside the headline, their strongest position is "don't make it unavailable."

And what argument do they make for it?

They trawled the data for things like reducing the transmission of HIV - which it does, in third-world country where condom usage is low, antiretroviral usage is low, pre-exposure prophylaxis is low. In first-world countries, circumcisions have not been shown to be protective, because in a setting with a higher baseline level of antiretroviral and condom usage, its effect is somewhere between negligible and non-existent.

The AAP is writing recommendations for America, not the third world.

Likewise, the reduction in cancers is a tiny effect. Small to begin with and, again, negligible in first-world countries.

As other pediatric bodies outside the AAP noted, including these "benefits" is a reach, and the AAP got raked over the coals for doing so.

So, no, not literally - the AAP made a strong political soundbite headline, and then walked it back in the text of their position paper, because they couldn't defend that headline.

And certainly not unambiguously, when they were widely criticized for relying on weak studies that didn't apply to the population in question.

The AAP isn't a terrible organization, but it's not immune to politics, and this shift in their official stance was political, not data-driven.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#526

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#527

Post by lmilcin » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #405

walt0 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I joined the private sector instead of the government sector, is that these issues are much much worse in the government sector. I was brainwashed to belive that merit will be valued in the private sector by the HR department and the managers. Which its not in the few places I have worked at. I'm not even low-caste but still faced these issues. My dad worked for the government for 30 years and he was not p…

One thing I've noticed with regards to discrimination at a couple I have worked is the treatment of mediocrity. At one American software shop I worked at early in my career I would see mediocre African American employees catch shit for being mediocre, but mediocre white people would not. So basically if you were not white you needed to be a stellar performer. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, and most of…

As a white man, that is also my perception.

Discrimination has outsize effect on mediocre people. Exceptionally good people will always be able to get far and exceptionally incompetent are likely to be poor.

The discrimination usually shows in lots of small decisions that each separately is very difficult to call discrimation but together amount to making your life more difficult.

Mediocre people don't get many chances to get ahead and they can slip up sometimes. Discrimination makes those few occasions to get ahead much less likely and pay much less and the occasions when they slip up much more unforgiving.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#528

Post by istjohn » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

naveen99 wrote: post #430

rutherblood wrote: post #178

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best wa…

Inter caste marriage doesn’t eliminate caste anymore than interracial marriage eliminates race. Also, there are no protected categories for discrimination when it comes to mating or marriage. Edit: splitting this comment into a reply. Please downvote or upvote individually...

Interracial marriage does not eliminate race, but in my experience as someone in an interracial marriage, it does greatly ameliorate the harms of racial divisions in society. It closes the empathy gap, allowing a large circle of people on each side learn about the unique experiences and circumstances of people in the other culture. It opens a kind of wormhole in the social graph allowing cultural knowledge and resources to flow between communities previously alien to each other. I believe the power of intermarriage really cannot be overstated as a means of bridging cultural divides.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#529

Post by esyir » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

tootsandboots wrote: post #520

wobbly_bush wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different castes represent differen…

You can modify the test to give them two choices, a partner that is of higher caste and another that is of lower caste - all things being equal (wealth, health, even skin color). If they were truly non-discriminatory, and only cared about preserving their "culture", they should reject either one with equal probability.

Or you could model it a different way. They know it sucks, would rather it not be an issue, but hey, take all the advantages you can get.

If everything is the same, would a rational actor not pick the one which is more advantageous?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#530

Post by randomthrow007 » Wed, Jul 01, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

From India, working in software product companies since late nineties. My experience all in India, other than couple of years in USA very early. Have worked in companies like Microsoft, Google, Amazon etc in India.

To be honest I'm amazed at all the top level comments around caste, surname etc.! In my career never came across such situations.

At places like Microsoft, Amazon etc the promotions and perf eval brutally gets fought over during calibrations time. All in open, one manager against another, supported by data - who shipped what, how well, who could have done better, and so on. The last thing one would bring about is 'caste', 'surname' etc., even whiff of it would have pulled down the managers among their peers and their managers (typically group head), before even reaching to HR.

I'm not sure what kind of companies all these people worked at. Just so that HN readers does not get a skewed view - in my two decade plus experience I did not see any evidence AT ALL in those FANG+M companies and also do not hear in startups from my friends.