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Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

reuters.com

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Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#171

Post by Mirioron »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #114
elbigbad wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Assuming we're talking pretty usual traffic tickets and not talking about driving in a grossly negligent way, no one should _ever_ go to jail for traffic tickets. Largely this logic should apply to any malum prohibitum crime. There are plenty of other ways to enforce these fines/tickets.

I believe Jail time should only apply to people who are actively a threat. I know it's not popular, but I am in favor of some form of corporal punishment over jail time, and even over fines. Fines are meaningless to the wealthy, and devastating to the poor, but getting flogged feels the same to everyone.

Feeling physical pain does make people avoid the situations that cause them. However, they are most effective when the physical pain happens very soon after and it happens consistently. Eg touching a hot stove. You get hurt immediately and every time. This teaches you very quickly not to do that. This makes physical pain not be as effective as a legal punishment through courts though. Courts take a long time to figure out guilt and they aren't always consistent. Being arrested fits far more into that category than anything the courts decide.

The other problem with using corporal punishment is that it's very easy to overdo it. It's also very easy to not do enough.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#172

Post by tialaramex »

remmargorp64 wrote: post #127
candiodari wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing there can be reduced to the observation: why does society let foster care and youth protective services exist? You might say "well to protect kids". Except, there's a massive body of research proving that they make things worse, certainly on average: https://sci-hub.se/10.1257/aer.97.5.1583 Massive negative effects, from reading scores, to later earnings, to subjective happiness (yes, really, kids rep…

So where is a child supposed to go when their parents have died or been imprisoned? Should they just be homeless? What alternative do you envision?

Ideally parents agree this with somebody appropriate in advance. Like end of life planning it's something that people are told to do, but most don't bother.

If my parents had both died during my childhood we knew we'd live with our cousins Catherine and Victoria. If somehow we didn't come with a pile of money (from insurance paying out or other mechanisms that fire when two child-rearing age people suddenly die) things would have been very tight for my Uncle and his wife but we'd have family.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#173

Post by Mirioron »

defen wrote: post #132
nitwit005 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as it survives appeal, judges can basically rule whatever they want. Plenty of crazy rulings have gotten through the courts. Remember that time they ruled it was okay to toss all the Japanese people in internment camps?

Judges could also order that "fugitive" slaves could be returned to their "owners", or that people convicted of treason could be vivisected, if you go far enough back in time. I'm not sure what point is being argued here. If you want to make judges personally liable for following the law and/or for making mistakes, why would anyone become a judge?

If you make soldiers personally liable for following orders then why would anyone want to be a soldier? I'm not saying this to be funny. Most other professions can be held responsible for doing their job, but doing it very poorly that causes harm to others. But somehow judges are exempt.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#174

Post by Mirioron »

defen wrote: post #20
dependenttypes wrote: post #6

Not sure if this is relevant to this but I would like to remind you that a US judge can order to you be sterilized without your knowledge and you can do nothing about it nor can anything be done to the judge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stump_v._Sparkman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

That's a sensationalized way of describing it. Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized. The judge made a large number of procedural mistakes in granting the petition, but the Supreme Court ruled that he didn't act outside of his judicial capacity. The general rule is that judges can't be held personally liable for mistakes they m…

>The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized.

Anyone can petition anything. Granting a petition that does something that would violate someone else's rights despite them not having done anything wrong is fundamentally wrong. Forced sterilization, especially without your knowledge, is akin to capital punishment. If you get it wrong then nothing can make amends for it, because you cannot undo it.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#175

Post by jogjayr »

bzb3 wrote: post #163
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how does it do any good to put her behind bars at all The good it does is deterrence to the rest of the population. Or that's how authoritarians like to see these sorts of dis-proportionate punishments.

What exactly can we do about someone who clearly doesn't give a fuck about the law? What message does it send if you let someone pile up traffic tickets with no consequence for himself?

Garnish their wages? Seize their assets? That's what we do for other forms of debt, it's not that hard of a question, honestly.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#176

Post by jogjayr »

ksdale wrote: post #80
elbigbad wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Assuming we're talking pretty usual traffic tickets and not talking about driving in a grossly negligent way, no one should _ever_ go to jail for traffic tickets. Largely this logic should apply to any malum prohibitum crime. There are plenty of other ways to enforce these fines/tickets.

Asking non-rhetorically and in good faith, what are the plenty of other ways to enforce fines?

Wage garnishment, collections agents, bankruptcy.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#177

Post by Mirioron »

defen wrote: post #68
SkyBelow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. More specifically, they can't unless they do, but if they do then that's okay. Which seems to simplify to "they can".

"Judges can order people to be put to death." That's a true statement, and in my opinion not deceptive, because capital punishment is widely understood as a thing that exists , and that it is treated as a punishment for certain crimes for which a person has been duly convicted. No reasonable person hears "Judges can order people to be put to death" and thinks "Wow, so a rogue judge could just order me to be killed fo…

>Wow, so a rogue judge could just order me to be killed for no reason and that would be it, game over for me?

The difference is that you can know about it and defend yourself. There are hearings and chances to appeal. The sterilization in this case was done without the girl/woman's knowledge. It's impossible for her to appeal, because she didn't even know about it. Even worse is that her guardian would be the one who would decide to appeal.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#178

Post by jogjayr »

salawat wrote: post #142
justaguyhere wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that judges are elected This is definitely one of the problems. There was a study that showed judges were handing stricter sentences for the same crime during election years than non election years ("tough on crime"). Elections are a popularity contest in a way, even well informed voters do not always make rational decisions. If one doesn't have elections to worry about, he/she can do their job to t…

Yes, because unaccountable lifelong appointed judges works so well in other spheres, yes? Jefferson, Madison, at al feared the Judiciary for a reason. Particularly the Federal tier. Elected judges have a built in check in that they are subject to periodic reaffirmation of confidence from the populace. An appointed judge just needs the right connections once, and to not do anything on such a regular basis that they be…

What about appointed judges with a long term? 10 or 12 years - that's longer than legislators or executive branch people. It gives them more independence but also ensures a turnover of people and ideas. Do it on a rolling basis so that every 1 or 2 years a judge from the court has to step down.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#179

Post by burfog »

wahern wrote: post #104
kube-system wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Towing, impound, booting of the vehicle? Revocation of license? Community service? Wage garnishment?

For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. That's the problem with these debates about penalties--for the very poor, any penalty might be life destroying. But then how do you incentivize certain kinds of behavior? And how do you determine when somebody is too poor to be subject to any kind of penalty? Any loopholes you create will always be abused by the…

I don't agree that "jail time is something everybody understands, no matter how poor you are".

The biggest impact, by far, is on the working people.

The rich would be somewhat miserable for a time, but that's it. After jail they can go back to their rich lifestyle.

The poor can be miserable or not, depending on exact level of "poor". Freedom is lost, but with hot meals and a roof and medical care, it's not all bad. People have been known to purposely commit minor crimes in from of the police, or to self-report by phoning from the scene of the crime, so that they could go to jail.

Working people of all levels are devastated. At the low end, failing to show up for work on time is cause for termination. At the high end, failed background checks will make the person unemployable by an entire industry or career field. Bills had been getting paid, but that ends, and the family is evicted. All belongings are likely lost; getting them moved isn't so easy while passing the days in jail. Divorce is likely. Cars will be repossessed. The person leaves jail with no belongings, no money, no family, no job, and no possibility of getting a similar job.

The working people are rightly terrified of jail. It usually keeps them in line. When it doesn't, it transitions them to being poor.

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