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Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

reuters.com

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Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#41

Post by justaguyhere »

pmoriarty wrote: post #18
meddlepal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of stupidity you get with elected judges.

The problem isn't that judges are elected, but that it's nearly impossible for voters to make an informed decision. In the last election, I tried to find out about the local judges on my ballot and could find virtually nothing. The media has been neutered in to an infotainment machine, so there's very little investigative journalism left even on issues of national or international importance, much less on small issue…

The problem isn't that judges are elected

This is definitely one of the problems. There was a study that showed judges were handing stricter sentences for the same crime during election years than non election years ("tough on crime"). Elections are a popularity contest in a way, even well informed voters do not always make rational decisions.

If one doesn't have elections to worry about, he/she can do their job to the best of their ability without thinking about pleasing anyone or pandering to any one group, just good old honest work. The moment they have to think about elections, things change. What kind of judge would you like to have - someone who is totally honest and fair without giving a crap about what others think, or someone who is trying to be popular?

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#42

Post by justaguyhere »

mcv wrote: post #34
jessaustin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This position, like most city judges, is not elected. TFA makes this clear: A few months after Judge Hayes’ suspension ended, his term as a municipal judge was set to expire. So, the Montgomery City Council took up the question of the judge’s future on March 6, 2018. On the agenda of its meeting: whether to reappoint Hayes to another four-year term. Everyone on that city council knew, for years, what a terrible judge…

Both political appointments and elections are a bad idea. Both make the appointment of judges a political decision.

Is there a third option though?

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#43

Post by defen »

dependenttypes wrote: post #28
defen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a sensationalized way of describing it. Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized. The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized. The judge made a large number of procedural mistakes in granting the petition, but the Supreme Court ruled that he didn't act outside of his judicial capacity. The general rule is that judges can't be held personally liable for mistakes they m…

> Judges can't just decide to have random people sterilized They can if someone petitions for it. > The mother petitioned the court to have her minor daughter sterilized And I can petition to have you sterilized. If the judge accepts it you will not be able to hold him responsible. He does not need to listen to you nor do you need to know about it. > The general rule is that judges can't be held personally liable for…

So in your opinion, if I petition a court for permission to kill my neighbor "because he's really annoying", and for some reason the judge says yes, he won't be held liable? Because I disagree. Judges do not have the ability to blanket "bless" actions so long as someone petitions for it. You have to look at the specifics of the case.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#44

Post by thex10 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #36
CyberDildonics wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are there more details that know about this specific case that explain the sentence?

Perhaps contempt. Perhaps a disregard for public safety. Who knows? It of course was outrageous, but there was certainly something going on that pushed the judge's buttons. Because, every traffic violator didn't get that sentence, right?

> but there was certainly something going on that pushed the judge's buttons

Yeah, but who's to say whether that something was remotely reasonable versus something completely frivolous (she rolled her eyes at him, she didn't cry convincingly enough, some other bullshit).

Anyway I'd argue that our justice system should have zero room for such capricious, emotional judging.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#45

Post by jmoss20 »

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #32
Reedx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, even if she failed to pay 10,000 traffic tickets, how does it do any good to put her behind bars at all? They really couldn't think of a better way to deal with non-violent offense??

Devil's Advocate: Look at a Youtube video of any country where they don't enforce traffic laws. It's chaotic and unsafe. Fear of consequences is the only thing that keeps people somewhat sane on the road, the alternative is chaos or literally having police every quarter mile looking for infractions. Until we have self-driving cars, it's beneficial for society and everyone who has to drive for traffic violations to be…

1. Citation? I seriously doubt punishments like this one have any effect on general traffic-law compliance. (IIRC, similar research has always showed weak penalties + high/consistent enforcement was the most effective.)

2. "foster care being worse" is exactly the issue, no? Even if I buy the "traffic tickets correlate with unsafe environment" assumption, you're suggesting we remove the kids for their own safety (or a guess at it, based on a noisy signal)...but then suggesting their actual safety is a separate issue?

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#46

Post by chmod775 »

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #32
Reedx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, even if she failed to pay 10,000 traffic tickets, how does it do any good to put her behind bars at all? They really couldn't think of a better way to deal with non-violent offense??

Devil's Advocate: Look at a Youtube video of any country where they don't enforce traffic laws. It's chaotic and unsafe. Fear of consequences is the only thing that keeps people somewhat sane on the road, the alternative is chaos or literally having police every quarter mile looking for infractions. Until we have self-driving cars, it's beneficial for society and everyone who has to drive for traffic violations to be…

> Look at a Youtube video of any country where they don't enforce traffic laws. It's chaotic and unsafe.

Those sentencing practices couldn't be further from what, for example, Germany does and Germany's roads are way safer than US roads (going by vehicle kilometers traveled).

You don't need to hand out stupidly excessive sentences like you get for pretty much anything in the US to have safe roads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

> Single motherhood shouldn't entitle you to ignore traffic laws.

So your children should be taken away if you get a parking ticket? What?

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#47

Post by logicchop »

jmoss20 wrote: post #33
logicchop wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend the judge in that case in any way, but there is a question about whether/when it is OK or even desirable for judges to intervene "indirectly" with their power. For example (just an example, not suggesting this is how it was), suppose in the case you mention that the mother was suspected of being abusive or negligent, but that a prosecutable case couldn't be made for that, and that the traffic tickets we…

Surely you notice those two points conflict? 1. The judge must understand that the (justice) system is flawed, it's his/her job to bring about justice anyway. 2. The judge must believe the (foster care) system is flawless, it's not his/her job to worry about that.

1. I don't think the judge has to believe the justice system is flawed. It might just be that the justice system has limits, and that sometimes those limits are not sufficient to bring about the best outcome. Again, consider prosecutorial discretion and how it is used.

2. I don't think the judge has to believe it is flawless. In fact, the judge might believe that it is not flawless, and again exercise in the opposite direction of NOT sentencing someone who would otherwise be correctly sentenced just to keep kids out of a bad foster care system. My point was that, barring a situation where the judge has grounded suspicions about the foster care system, the judge must basically (as a principle of law) endorse the foster care system as a viable caretaker of the children. Judges would otherwise be required to initiate investigations into foster care systems (and the like) whenever they might be utilized in a legal setting. That's an impossible burden.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#48

Post by pnutjam »

pmoriarty wrote: post #18
meddlepal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of stupidity you get with elected judges.

The problem isn't that judges are elected, but that it's nearly impossible for voters to make an informed decision. In the last election, I tried to find out about the local judges on my ballot and could find virtually nothing. The media has been neutered in to an infotainment machine, so there's very little investigative journalism left even on issues of national or international importance, much less on small issue…

In Indiana, you can pull up a judge's cases in the court system: https://www.in.gov/judiciary/admin/2666.htm

Maybe your state has something similar. I found it useful to read a couple decisions written by the judges on our last ballot.

Re: Thousands of U.S. judges who broke laws, oaths remained on the bench

#49

Post by chmod775 »

stonogo wrote: post #39
tenebrisalietum wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's Advocate: Look at a Youtube video of any country where they don't enforce traffic laws. It's chaotic and unsafe. Fear of consequences is the only thing that keeps people somewhat sane on the road, the alternative is chaos or literally having police every quarter mile looking for infractions. Until we have self-driving cars, it's beneficial for society and everyone who has to drive for traffic violations to be…

You're arguing to the wrong assertion. She was not jailed for traffic infractions. She was jailed for failing to pay fines, which incarceration is expressly against the law. C.f. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/07/446681086... for a recent example of this being prosecuted.

So basically you have to pay money to go prison which you don't have so you go to prison again for which you have to again pay money which you don't have so you go to prison for which you have to pay money...

What.

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