China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#81

Post by magicsmoke » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:30 AM UTC

ackbar03 wrote: post #64

arcticbull wrote: post #2

This is the death knell for Hong Kong and for One Country, Two Systems -- which has effectively been over in Macau for years. I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US had different leadership -- actually interested in furthering the cause of freedom and democracy throughout the world. While of course the UK is responsible for policing the handover agreement, it's been too busy staring dow…

> I can't help but wonder if things would have been different if the US Honestly not trying to be snarky or anything but purely observationally, I find it interesting how people automatically default to thinking America should have done something about something going on in a completely different country of which they do not really understand the history and culture. And if you've been following global developments o…

The bedrock of western ideals that the US was born from contains a lot of influences from Christianity, especially the part where the duty of a good Christian is to spread the faith and convert heathens around the world to the one true faith in order to save them from eternal damnation in hell. Although religiosity as a whole is going down in the western world, this savior complex still persists and echos of it can be seen in how many people in the West feel a need to, as you put it, do something to spread democracy and human rights on the other side of the world regardless of local history or customs because it's for their own good.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#82

Post by obiye » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #53

obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

Their “ideals” are more land and more power for themselves. That is their publicly stated ambition. That is what is ridiculous.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#83

Post by vincvinc » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

iliketosleep wrote: post #78

ztratar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this is downvoted, so plz have an upvote!

Posts that are critical of China's gov. will automatically get downvotes from a particular subset of people.

I see my post going up and down, it's a true roller coaster, haha.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#84

Post by ksec » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

hyperman1 wrote: post #70

obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

I recently learned some about the Chinese vision: China aspires to long-term stability first. China had in its past times where the country's internal organization broke down, resulting in famine, ... Lots of people died. As a result, Confucianism has risen: A vision where individual freedom is seen as a danger to that internal organization. Hence, it should be tempered by strict loyalty to the family, with the whole…

Um....

There were hundred of other thoughts at the time and Confucianism hasn't risen. Confucianism was used as a tool to solidify the power within the Empire. The only thing you will do is kneel and obey.

And China aspires to long-term stability first is not about China in itself, but the long term control of power. Which for thousands of years has proved what should now be a famous line, Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#85

Post by obiye » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:32 AM UTC

teekert wrote: post #80

obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

I think you need to read this book : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit...

I’ve read it. I think you need to learn any Chinese or Russian history.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#86

Post by politicdone » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:32 AM UTC

archibaldJ wrote: post #38

As someone who lives inside China I just hope this will encourage more direct and indirect confrontations with the system that defines the current central government i.e. among the intellects and influentials in China, now that a pillar of the freedom of Chinese expression is on its way to unnatural erosion under the paradigm introduced by this new law unto Hong Kong, that of which used to be where grey areas of Chin…

unlikely given that the shining example of freedom of expression was the crazy chaos in Hong Kong over the last 12 months, which saw people who use their freedom of speech to voice their dissent being assaulted and set on fire. hard to find many sympathizers for this in the mainland.... but easy for many in China to see hongkongers simply as unhappy about an economic reality where in the last 30 years China has far exceeded the growth of Hong Kong.

instead of pouring their energy into useless Street protests the kids of Hong Kong should make some startup companies or move to Guangzhou and make their fortune in a place that's a little more affordable to live in with a lot more space....

still I bet it must feel so satisfying to be able to blame China for all their unhappiness. The only problem is these kids being used by forces they don't understand. their energy, momentum and potential has being directed towards this end. Even the end is a good thing, the creation of a more stable society, it's not what people realize. wouldn't it be in China's interest to create a chaotic situation in Hong Kong in order to increase the contrast between the successes of its own system and the failures of the Western model espoused Hong Kong, as well as to add momentum to calls to extend national laws to Hong Kong to make up for the long-overdue article 23?

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#87

Post by yibg » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:32 AM UTC

This makes me sad. I loved Hong Kong the way it was and had held out some hope that it can. stay more or less that way for a while. I knew of course that Hong Kong had a huge uphill battle. But was still waiting for that miracle.

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#88

Post by av_engr » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:34 AM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #30

c3zh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is the protesters are not wanting One Country Two Systems, but Two countries. They are weaving US and UK flags when protesting, telling everyone that they are not Chinese. And the list goes on. I don't think either US or UK can tolerant things like this for more than a year. Update: I can't reply any more because Hacker News thinks I'm posting too much. So please let me thanks you all for replying here. And…

You are being downvoted just because the "zh" in your username. What you say it is actually true and I suppose it is the feeling of a majority of HongKongners, if those wishes are legal or feasible it is another discussion.

"I don't have a point so I'm going to pull the race card".

Most Hkers are against CCP not China, who does a great job in blending the nation-party-race elements together in disguise. Hkers don't feel superior, it's just that your self-consciousness are assuming others are looking down on you.. lol

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#89

Post by baybal2 » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #53

obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

>Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

> This is ridiculous. Do you think China and Russia are operating like an ant colony or something?

As a person who spend near half of my life in both of them, I don't see the statement being far from reality.

Both countries indeed feel quite "aimless," as they are today. Nor Russia, nor China saw any kind of conscious political course setting for two full decades.

I don't see Xi, or Putin having any semblance of a long term plan for their countries, nor having an idea where they are going themselves.

Just like an airplane on autopilot will fly aimlessly until it runs out of fuel, or runs into a mountain, both Xi, and Putin just want their systems to last as much as they can, and if they need to invade few countries to sate primal urges of their polities, they think "so be it"

Re: China has passed a national security law for Hong Kong

#90

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #54

obiye wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US foreign policy has obviously always been very far from perfect, but this kind of equivocation is destructive and pointlessly cynical. Russia and China aspire to nothing. Even if we fail them most of the time, at least the US has ideals. If you were given the chance to live in the US vs one of the other “empires” would you really choose somewhere else? For all our faults, you know the answer is no.

> Russia and China aspire to nothing. Not really. Russia and China aspires to protect their perceived sovereignty. That is probably the most fundamental political ideal. Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'. Last but not least, in a post-COVID world, I can't really say that US is even better for your physical well-being among the choices.

> Also, China doesn't really treat HK as 'foreign'.

Depends what you mean by "treat it as foreign". It's under a different legal system, it has its own currency, and migration between China and Hong Kong is controlled. If you enter China on a single-entry visa, you won't be able to get back in (without a new visa) after visiting Hong Kong.