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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

danwang.co

421–430 of 452 posts

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen plenty of coders promoted into management. Of course, it takes time - first they have to prove themselves in some tech lead or product owner role and later, if they seem capable, they can go higher. Come to this about it, two out of three of my current bosses (incl. a guy who has hundreds of people under him) are ex-coders.

Where do you work because this categorically does not happen to any appreciable degree in small to medium sized companies in London. Also I would kill for a product owner role. The idea that a programmer can get into a PO role is laughable. I've never seen even the glimmer of a chance of that happening to either myself or my peers.

I work in a large European bank. Mind you, the coder who was made PO is very good at human interactions and politics - but that's kind of a prerequisite for this role.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#422
post #411
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in the Paris region, as an additional data point people with a master degree from rather good engineering schools get 35K - 45K euro.

Is that before or after taxes?

Convention in Europe is to mention the 'before taxes' number. To the best of my knowledge that is true for at least western Europe.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you work because this categorically does not happen to any appreciable degree in small to medium sized companies in London. Also I would kill for a product owner role. The idea that a programmer can get into a PO role is laughable. I've never seen even the glimmer of a chance of that happening to either myself or my peers.

What do you count as a small company? My experience at a small company in London was that I had to be a combined programmer, manager, product owner, project manager and user researcher very early on because, well, there weren’t enough employees/customers to have actual qualified people acting in those roles full-time. (And it’s cheaper to make one person do all the roles and only pay them for one role, of course...)

Try using that to get PO or PM role at your next job. You won't even get to interview. I know, I've tried. Really really hard. I've sent out 100s of cv's applying for pm or ba roles with ample experience at small companies, with tech lead role, re facto scrum master role. 15 years experience. With a c.v the a CTO helped me write. And got absolutely no where. 1 interview out of hundreds of applications. You just do not realise that it is impossible to climb out of the programming hole.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#424

The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…

An an aside: I would say debugging is one of my favourite bits of programming!

You get to be the Sherlock Holmes of a digital mystery.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#425
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, Civil Engineers do learn physics as part of their course. The analogy is apt for exactly that reason. Some knowledge in physics is fundamentally required, but for the civil engineer it's only professionally relevant to the extent that they can apply it to solve practical problems. A solid understanding of physics (and indeed how to come out wiser after reading a paper relevant to your field) is just one part…

What would you learn in a BSc Software Engineering that's not in a BSc Computer Science course that's not going to become redundant after a couple years and couldn't be covered in a module? I have thought about this before and argued for Software Engineering to be a specific course/field, but it's just too ephemeral at the moment with a lack of 'core' elements to warrant a 3 year course. Edit: To be clear, I want the…

> What would you learn in a BSc Software Engineering that's not in a BSc Computer Science course that's not going to become redundant after a couple years

Industrial economy, ethics, engineering professionalism, development methodology seem rather universal. Then, depending on specialization you could pick up anything from signal theory to control engineering to human anatomy.

> and couldn't be covered in a module?

That's a pair of very, very narrowly placed goalposts. Of course you could cover anything in a module and call it computer science, but where would you go then if you have a legitimate interest in computer science and not a bunch of courses that really have nothing to do with it?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#426
post #80
post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

My niece had almost the exact same opinion despite having multiple family members who didn't fit that description, including her mother! It wasn't until I introduced her to some of my younger female co-workers that she committed to being a CS major. She's now a third generation software engineer, which has to be fairly unique.

> "She's now a third generation software engineer, which has to be fairly unique."

The profession isn't very old yet, but it's coming. My oldest son is also planning on becoming a third-generation programmer.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#427
post #404

When I learned coding, CS wasn't really a "thing." I came up from the hardware end of things (EE). Today, the only downside of this seems to be that I never learned all the binary tree stuff (BTrees haven't played any role in the type of coding I've been doing for the last three decades), so I don't fare well in employment exams. Otherwise, I'm actually thrilled at the way my software development education has gone.…

CS has been a thing since the 60s

> CS has been a thing since the 60s

Yes, but note that I used "quotes." It wasn't anything as close to an "institution," as it has been for the last couple of decades.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply! I think that clarifies your viewpoint considerably. If you don't mind me asking, could you elaborate on the kinds of opportunities that money doesn't buy? And furthermore, to what extent have you seen vocation give access to that which is not given by heredity or caste? I think that would help elucidate the subtle distinction between high clout and high social status.

For example... I have a friend who is a barrister in London. He makes a lot less money than I do, and works a lot longer hours, so sounds like he has the lower status job, right? No, because he's getting invited to join elite private social clubs and organisations. He's going to dinner parties with politicians and could use that network to start a political career if he wanted. He's meeting people with capital to inv…

> There's a whole real-life social network out there, and they definitely aren't inviting the programmers.

I'm not sure if someone in your position is in the right position to be making this conclusion, if only because your lack of experience of social status (or those of people who you know who share your vocation) doesn't prove the vocation has any causality on social status. If there is a real-life "social network" out there, and "the programmers" (of which you are one, presumably) aren't getting invited, what is the inference to draw there? That programming is inherently low status, or that many low status people are in the vocation?

To give a counterexample, much of my career has been "just a programmer", but I have never had issues building close friendships with investors, executives, musicians, actors, and other well connected people. But elite private social clubs and organizations? Dinner parties with politicians? That's all passé. That's what people who _want_ to signal high status but actually can't do. And all of the politicians and investors follow the trailblazers who are scaling creative collectives and entrepreneurship federations who are in...you guessed it, my friend group.

As I have gotten older, I have become increasingly annoyed with the "programming is a low status" vocation trope. It's incredibly naive and simplistic. You think other vocations are higher status? Your friend who is a barrister isn't high status. He looks high status to you because you've never seen what truly high status is. That isn't a dig at you; rather, it's an invitation. Reserve your judgment of the world and how it works until you actually meet and party with these billionaires, politicians, and inheritors of nobility/trust fund wealth.

Having gone to college with these folks and having made friends with them, I'll tell you that the way they work is a lot different than what you think. They are almost allergic to these vocations that you would think of as "high-status" because they think these people are upper-middle class try-hards who are simply lame. They want cool artists, musicians, photographers, club promoters, entrepreneurs and other exploration minded folks as friends. Money and vocation can't buy cool. And programmers can be very cool. But you'd have to try and figure out what that means. It usually means you have to follow more of the hacker ethos than the academia ethos. You have to have a little bit of a piratical penchant for creative destruction.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess there's a lot I could have said, but what I actually said was "oh", and left.

Do you still work there?

No, I left nearly 10 years ago, but it wasn't related to that incident.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#430
post #371
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often linked this in /r/cscareerquestions as advice to students: http://www.cs.uni.edu/%7Ewallingf/blog/archives/monthly/2018... {quote} But I had enjoyed working on the hard projects I'd encountered in my programing class back in high school. They were challenges I wanted to overcome. I changed my major and dove into college CS courses, which were full of hard problems -- but hard problems that I wanted to solv…

Its just that right now programming jobs pay well. Not all passions line up with job that earns enough.

I am fortunate that my enjoyment of the hobby of photography wasn't discovered until I was employed with a good paycheck coming in. If I had found I enjoyed photography in high school or college I may have been tempted to pursue it professionally. The thing is... I hate the business of photography.

Yes, programming jobs tend to pay well. So do medicine, law, and various other white collar jobs... for that matter, so do many trades.

Its not a question of "does it pay well" but rather "are you willing to do the hard work that it entails and not burn out after a year." That question isn't one that many college students or bootcamp grads have considered.

If you only enjoy creating new apps and not debugging them when something breaks - being a professional programmer may not be the proper role to be in. Not all things that are written are new apps (brownfield is much more common than greenfield) and debugging is an essential part of writing software.

This is what is meant by willing to endure the hard work. One may have a passion for computers ("I love playing games and building new computers from parts") but not enjoy programming.

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