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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#341

Post by karmelapple »

rocqua wrote: post #218
karmelapple wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists - not just CS, but biologists, chemists, etc. - are not in elected leadership positions very much. I agree they are frequently not willing to represent. But again - why? A few opinions: * scientists (computer, life, or otherwise) do not think their talents are best used in making public policy. There are so many other ways those talents and intelligence could be used * perhaps worse pay (though the benefit…

Another relevant factor I think, is the kind of challenges you must overcome in politics vs technology. A scientist probably finds the challenges to overcome in technology much more intellectually stimulating than she finds the challenges in politics. Which makes sense because people tend to get good at things they enjoy, and scientists need to get good at overcoming challenges much like technological challenges.

Bingo. Thanks for writing this more clearly and succinctly than I could!

Even though making laws or doing science both require writing and documentation, the challenge in a lab or on a computer is very different than coalition building amongst hundreds of very different people.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#342

Post by thu2111 »

thelopa wrote: post #334
thu2111 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk isn't a physicist. He's a programmer who retrained as a rocket engine specialist and business leader. Rockets involve physics but only in the sense that computers involve physics, they're applications of fairly basic physical theories. I mean, he's not doing string theory in his corporate offices. Angela Merkel is also not a physicist. She studied physics and then published a few papers in 'quantum chemistry' bu…

> Rowling is well known but is currently having her reputation blown up and being stabbed in the back by the starlets she birthed, because she's not on board with "people can pick their own gender at will". Wow. So much to unpack here. I’m getting the impression that you sympathize with Rowling’s views. I’m a little more immersed in trans issues than most on HN, so let me assure you that Rowling is flat out wrong. Fo…

I don't take a position on Rowling's views one way or another, as I haven't really investigated them. I believe the quote is a reasonably accurate summary of her position but it's based on second hand accounts I've read in the press; can well believe it's somewhat garbled. My understanding is the argument is about whether people can pick a new gender without any biological changes/surgery, but who knows, maybe she's against hormone therapies too.

At any rate, my point isn't about the topic of trans people. It merely illustrates that Rowling's social status, such that it is, doesn't seem especially helpful to her right now, leading to the question of whether she truly has any. Elon Musk can get high in interviews, make tweets so controversial he gets literally gets fined by the government for them and he just keeps on trucking: apparently his status is far higher than hers.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#343

Post by ryandrake »

commandlinefan wrote: post #251
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. This really struck home for me about 15 or so years ago. I was a "principal architect" at Travelocity, which meant that I was involved in driving the most complex technical decisions of the site. I felt like I was really doing well for myself - it was the top of the "tech track" there. One day, corporate asked people who had graduated from a set of local univer…

Wish I had more than one upvote. This is a great story, one I wish more people would read who value "prestige" and "importance" in their careers. Being L9 Super Senior Software Engineer does not really give you any more credibility or prestige among the general public than you had as Entry Level Code Monkey. Nobody is going to ask you to so much as speak at a high school graduation or Rotary Club meeting just because you solely did the high level architecture for your company's suite of accounting apps.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#344

Post by Pfhreak »

screye wrote: post #311

Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…

I know plenty of contractors who improve their own homes in their spare time, artists who paint in their spare time, writers with side projects, teachers who do planning/look for lessons, etc. etc.

That said, I think we'd all be better off if engineers demanded collectively not to work more than 40 hours. (Tech unions/guilds could be formed and focused just on stuff like limiting hours/paying for overtime and oncall, btw.)

I've done it individually, and it has never slowed my career progression -- even when I worked at Amazon, I was adamant that my family and personal time came first, but I still was promoted regularly.

I still code in my spare time, but it's totally unrelated to work.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#345

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Lammy wrote: post #76
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

I don't need the validation of corrupt and incognizant meatspace organizations to justify my love and respect for computers and computer science. The only winning move is not to play :)

Yeah. Upper-class social status seems to be a function of who recognizes/approves/endorses you, and how much status they have. In software, status is completely different: Does your code work? Does it do non-trivial things, and do them well? It seems to me that it would be difficult to chase both kinds of status at once; having success at software may make it almost impossible to have social success, just because you're focused on a different goal.

So software people look at status as a game that is 1) pointless (as Nicholas_C said here, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"), and 2) one that is stacked against you, since you start with no status. Most software types look at that game and say "Why would I bother? I've got better things to do."

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#346

Post by zelphirkalt »

commandlinefan wrote: post #286
jagger27 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell? How did you respond to that?

I guess there's a lot I could have said, but what I actually said was "oh", and left.

I'll admit, I was hoping for a heroic story of how that person was made aware of their mistake and begged for forgiveness :D

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#347

Post by hindsightbias »

NalNezumi wrote: post #48

I've always seen the same pattern in College decision: self-projection. That is, a combination of what they know and what they think they can do/like . Most people choosing Uni choose from what they know. Majority of young people know little about anything CS or nerdy; They often know the end product (computers, phones, apps) but very little about the people working on it. Compare that to doctors, managers, Wallstree…

> janitor boots

I’d hazard that in the last decade or so (more than most), CS is akin to being a Digital Janitor.

Debugging/repairing things, cleaning up spills, dealing with problems the kids make, working long hours to keep the system going.

The difference is, in some markets, you can make a lot more.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#348

Post by buboard »

thu2111 wrote: post #280
buboard wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk is a physicist though, and i m pretty sure Musk is a frequent subject even when politicians speak. They have not reached out to the public in ways that Rowling or Obama have, so it's natural that the public feels them distant. Bill gates earns some respect for his low-key activism but he s not too prominent either. Scientists who reach out can garner respect, Thatcher was a Chemist, Merkel is a physicist. It's t…

Musk isn't a physicist. He's a programmer who retrained as a rocket engine specialist and business leader. Rockets involve physics but only in the sense that computers involve physics, they're applications of fairly basic physical theories. I mean, he's not doing string theory in his corporate offices. Angela Merkel is also not a physicist. She studied physics and then published a few papers in 'quantum chemistry' bu…

musk studied physics though. and you cant be a phd chemist without being a physicist at some point. of course all politicians are primarily politicians at the time when they do politics but we 're talking about background here. Background matters because it creates a culture and a set of ethics. Popular figures are generally freeloaders riding on democracy's bias for popularity.

It's just that for lawyers , politics is almost part of their normal career progression: you go from law-student to law-maker. Political scientists or economists becoming politicians is similarly easy to grasp. Medical doctors and engineers less so, but what matters here is they are both regulated professions, regulated by lawmakers so there's a long-standing relationship.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#349

Post by b20000 »

screye wrote: post #311

Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? For most people here, CS is their hobby. So a lot of learning and knowledge acquisition happens during 'leisure' time. This is rarely the case in other professions. If we count all the time we spend resolving environments, getting setups right, learning new tools and reading papers as work (as we rightly should), then most pe…

Can we talk about how much more CS people are expected to work than people in other fields ? ===> THIS

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#350

Post by ralphc »

HanP77 wrote: post #161
tosser0001 wrote: post #72

The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…

This I've been working has a web developer for two years after completing a bootcamp. Peoples often ask me questions because they think about doing the same. I always say to them that this is not for everbody, you are banging your head against the wall most of the time. Off course nothing beat that sensation when you finally found the problem or even when you get closer. But that has to be your thing.

Like writing or art, you have to can't not do it. I've been retired for 3 years and I still do it, can't imagine not doing it, even if I don't do it every day.
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