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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#261

Post by commandlinefan »

ipnon wrote: post #240
tosser0001 wrote: post #72

The problem is CS is just a miserable field to be in unless you really, really enjoy the grind of it. To me it comes down to some CS-specific version of Mike Tyson's (perhaps apocryphal) quote "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" - something along the lines of "Everyone has fun programming until they have to start debugging". My city has several years of programming courses at the high school. A…

You have to be a little crazy to want to spend your life trying to get these damned things to work.

... and never be appreciated for it. ("why did it take so long?")

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#262

Post by racl101 »

corpMaverick wrote: post #169
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are.

Totally agree. I remember talking to a girl in math class, who, while she liked the idea of using Python to solve problems, when I tried to extoll the virtues of CS to her so that maybe she'd take more courses, she regaled to me how her dad is a programmer and how miserable his job appeared to her.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#263

Post by [deleted] »

logicchains wrote: post #206
corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

>we don't get fancy titles Some people get titles like "code ninja", although I suppose "fancy" isn't really the right word for that.

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#264

Post by commandlinefan »

battertenr wrote: post #47

The reason is because it is a terrible job. Unlikely 90% of other jobs, you have to mentally burn your brain out each day, constantly learn new things, and focus intensely, supposedly for 8 hours. The reward is nothing, not even good pay outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA. If you compare it to a trade, there is a night and day difference to your mental health. The wage data in this article is meaningless b…

> because it is a terrible job

Well, you're right, but 18-year-old high school graduates don't know that, at least not yet. That's not what's driving them in selecting a major (or skipping college entirely).

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#265

Post by rjsw »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #241
rjsw wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I chose to do more maths courses to avoid having to write essays. Source: I failed a CS degree.

The number of essays required for a CS degree is zero. If you think otherwise, all I can really say is "you're doing it wrong". Graduating from college usually requires some essays, but there are easy workarounds for that.

You seem to be assuming that your experience is universal.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#266

Post by jagger27 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #251
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. This really struck home for me about 15 or so years ago. I was a "principal architect" at Travelocity, which meant that I was involved in driving the most complex technical decisions of the site. I felt like I was really doing well for myself - it was the top of the "tech track" there. One day, corporate asked people who had graduated from a set of local univer…

What the hell? How did you respond to that?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#267

Post by thu2111 »

User23 wrote: post #220
corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field You're right of course, but I'm going to spell out more clearly what you're saying for those of us here who don't get it. Women avoid computing science because it's populated by low status men and women are repulsed by low status men. Women in tech are either low status themselves, quickly move up into management, or exit the field. Don't ha…

That's a big leap - is it supported by anything?

Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive.

Lots of people have spent lots of time looking at this. What's predictive is working with systems vs people. Jobs that involve tinkering with machines all day = men. Jobs that involve people and especially with a caring aspect to it = women. Finance is largely about abstract "machines" like markets, where you never see the faces of the people you're trading with = men.

Not many jobs are totally balanced 50/50 men/women, but those that are tend to be perceived as having a blend of systems/people work e.g. sales (where sales includes jobs like tele-sales or travelling sales).

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#268

Post by burntoutfire »

_xnmw wrote: post #165
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to look to get married. I'm now changing careers. I realized that women (and society in general) cared absolutely zero about my profession except for the fact that it made good money. Even if you do become obscenely wealthy, you rarely garner any real respect in m…

> On the other hand, everyone respects the like of Margaret Atwood, JK Rowling, or Barack Obama.

Caring about what everyone else thinks is a sure way to be miserable in life... The masses in general are poorly informed and understand nearly nothing out of the world that surrounds them, it's no wonder they give more respect to the author of the book that they liked or to an insanely hyped president than to someone who made a big contribution to technological progress. In other words - do good work, but don't expect people to praise you for it. It's perhaps good enough if they don't burn you at the stake...

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#269

Post by pdog »

chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

Even in more mundane settings, the status of computer scientists is usually negative. For example, if a random acquaintance asks what you do, you'd be better off telling them you're homeless or unemployed than to admit you're a software engineer.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#270

Post by commandlinefan »

non-entity wrote: post #59
Spooky23 wrote: post #32

Easy. The educational aspect is pretty awful. And after you get through that, the big companies treat you like a leper unless you went through a few chosen schools. I went to a big state school in the 90s. The first two years were a hazing, with a brutal curve designed to drop class size from 1000+ (CSI 200) to about 80 graduates. It was sink or swim and awarded grit. The only major worse was biology where organic ch…

> the big companies treat you like a leper unless you went through a few chosen schools. I was under the impression that they didnt care about your background, but you had to slave away on leetcode to have a chance to pass the interviews.

> they didnt care about your background

Actually my anecdotal observation is that it's a little bit worse than that: they rank CS graduates from the top-10 schools at the very top, the next tier are the "gritty, self-taught boot-camp graduates" and after that are the graduates from any of the other thousands of universities. So if you don't get into MIT or CMU, you're actually better off skipping college entirely, at least if you're considering programming.

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