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Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

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Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#511
post #312
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of many instances of someone sharing a "controversial" opinion where they weren't just regurgitating tired old arguments that are trivially discredited. The easy response is: well if they're trivially rebutted, why not just rebut them? That works once. Twice. Twenty times. It doesn't take long before these "just raising the controversy" comments overwhelm sincere and thought-provoking discussion. A rhet…

By "trivially discredited" do you mean just slapping some "-ist" label and boom, it is done?

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Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up some really interesting ideas, but there are certain times where communication is mission critical - and deeply considering complex communicational structures before posting/conveying information can eventuate in serious injury or loss of life. During those times, you simply need to be able to "get the message out" without worrying about the potential offense that you words may cause to a certain individ…

Can you give me an example of an urgent, mission critical communication that could be offensive to people?

Communication around birth control and abortion comes to mind.

You can always pretend we are right about this and those who are offended are biggots, but then you would make your parent's point.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#513

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

What? In what world would anyone find that offensive? It sounds like you're making up a situation, then using it defend not speaking up about things.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not.* It always has been, but the the arrival of new communication methods has disrupted the traditional channels, and now every idea is propagated to a much larger and looser audience, which aren't aware or don't…

This ignores that the web has birthed a global culture of people where participation in online discussion is the majority of their lives. And they sit around looking to be offended to raise their own social value amonst their online peers. Being offended is about obtaining value and for mobs to obtain power. The two way street of both trying to not offend AND the listener trying to honestly interpret what is being sa…

> Relationship therapists teach couples to use "I" language vs "you" language to express feelings

On the other hand, when a statement is made about you ("what you did is wrong") you always have a chance to discuss the facts. When a statement is made about personal feelings ("I feel offended by what you did") no discussion is possible any more: I can counter your interpretation of facts, but I cannot possibly argue about your stated feelings. You won, period. This seems to me the danger of the "I language".

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#515

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

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Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often find that those whose favorite rethorical tool is lying much prefer to slander their opponents rather than attempt to refute their points.

ditto.

You did understood he was referring to you, right?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#517
post #309

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People might pick the news they want to hear; but thinking this is "fine" is an appeal to ignorance. Ignorance is not strength. For whatever it's worth I was raised dirt poor, central Britain in a city that had been in rapid decline for many decades- Yet I believed, fiercely that Europe was less than Britain, that Muslims were coming for our benefits and our women and that Britains colonial past was something to be a…

Right, but did you believe these things because an algorithm on social media was giving you a limited view of the world? My own view is that I could limit my intake of knowledge to just a handful of people, but if they were the right people, I’d end up with a more original worldview than if I tried to read “both sides” since “both-sides-ism” tends to reactively assume the people shouting old views loudly represent an…

I did not believe those things due to an algorithm, I believed those things because I was never exposed to anything outside of my "bubble". People in my City tend not to leave especially if they are poor.

Exposure to the real world had a painful destructive effect, and if I had clung back into my safe little cubby hole I would have done so swiftly.

--

I believe "both sides" is important; but you're right that people scream and drown out any modicum of moderation; but it noble to attempt to at least understand the spirit of the arguments on every side of a debate.

Make your own reasoning about the facts based on the perspectives that are given, but other than that don't allow yourself to be emotive.

Really, this is what journalism is supposed to be, but that kind of journalism dies out because humans love to _feel_ so selling feelings about things is quite easy; this fuels divides. Since news is no longer fact it's merely "view" of the facts, and often not all of them.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#518

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> They also don't self-identify as trans. A lot of them do. > They take everything so personal even if its not about them. Is this an actual experience? I've worked with/interacted with quite a few queer people. And I've misgendered people on more than one occasion. Nothing a "shit sorry" hasn't been able to fix. This forces me to wonder why our experiences are so different. Do the queer people I work with have diffe…

Assuming you are from the US (im not) and work at Google, i guess its that your ideas about the LGBT community might come from people who actively participate in identity politics. If they do, they have interest in not passing and constantly outing themselves to demonstrate their minority status, because this is what they think makes their voice 'valid'. If you go trans because you suffer from gender dysphoria, your…

> If they do, they have interest in not passing and constantly outing themselves to demonstrate their minority status, because this is what they think makes their voice 'valid'.

This is a bit of an outdated view on being "trans". I'll elaborate a bit because this old view on transness I think is the main difference in our views.

As background, I assume we'll both agree that gender is (in western society anyway) stereotypically expressed as a binary: masculine and feminine. The extent and degree of this binary has shifted over time. At one point women wearing pants was unacceptable.

The historical view of transness was that people who are trans wanted to present as the other part of the binary. "I want to be seen as a man instead of a woman". This raises a question: why? The answer follows: "Because I feel like I should be a woman."

If you stop at the first question, your view of trans identities make sense: a trans identity is only valid if it fits snuggly into the existing gender binary. You are a biological male who identifies as a women, or a biological female who identifies as a man. And while both of those work under the second framing, gender nonconforming identities, which don't feel like they should be a woman, but instead feel like they shouldn't be a man (or a woman). I'll note that I'm intentionally simplifying here which has the consequence of erasing some identities like gender-fluidity. The framing still works for those, but the answers are different.

So "old" trans was about perception, "new" trans is about identity. Passing (or not) doesn't make someone's voice valid. Identity does. If you identify as trans, you are and that identity is valid is really how I'd summarize things. There's the potential for abuse of this, but in practice it doesn't happen.

So I reject the notion that one need to be visibly non-passing to be valid in any circle. This I think also addresses much of your second paragraph: there are many people who choose to identify as trans even though they are passing or mostly passing, if only because the shared experience is useful to identify. And they may do so only in certain circles (e.g. Be "out" only in queer circles where they feel more free to discuss their trans experiences).

> many sexually deviant

I'd be careful conflating sexual deviancy with LGBT identities for two reasons. First, "sexual deviancy" has historically been used as a pejorative for LGBT people in the US, and I assume elsewhere. And second, it's not particularly relevant. In psychology, "sexual deviancy" refers to paraphilias or kinks, which are explicitly sexual in nature. But a trans or gay person could be totally asexual. Even still, they could be romantically attracted to same sex people or have some gender dysphoria. Neither implies anything about the act of sex itself.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly not, since exactly as I already said, the examples you cite are restricted to specific jurisdictions it's quite easy to avoid Please, enlighten me. Name me a state which conforms to your ideals of 'free speech absolutism', where people are free to say whatever they like on any topic without any risk of public outcry or legal repercussions. I'll wait. > do you think people defending free speech have a proble…

> Please, enlighten me. Name me a state which conforms to your ideals of 'free speech absolutism' My point wasn't that there was, it was that the things you were pointing out were easily avoided by not going to the jurisdictions in which they were prevalent. Ironically, the answer to your question not that long ago would have been what is considered western countries. > No, I believe that your display of visceral hos…

So in a world in which the President of the United States openly expresses envy of how Kim Il Sung is treated by his compatriots, calls the free press 'the enemy of the people', sees reversing Section 230 as a pre-election priority and even feels the need to wade into stuff as trivial as NFL to insist they use firings to chill protest, you are trying to argue the only things free speech absolutists should be concerned about come from people with comparatively little power on the left of the political spectrum saying they are offended by things. Right.

The allegedly much worse examples you've cited of the left eroding free speech are the 'me too' movement involving women talking about their experiences of sexual harassment [an exercise of freedom of speech you found so abhorrent you compared it to Middle Eastern state and cultural oppression of women] and transpeople requesting people use pronouns you apparently disapprove of.

I think we both know that we are not going to reach agreement here, but one thing we both have in common is that clearly neither of us are free speech absolutists.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#520
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. The thing with situations like this is that it's not that the crowd is reporting that a crime has been committed. It doesn't even matter what was said, it's just that thousands of people are threatening that they will boycott their product. Companies and organisations just need to realise that those people we…

I saw a large thread on a subreddit about music asking others to boycott a specific store because the CEO made a campaign donation to Trump. Several people sounded like they were actual customers... But the kicker is that in the end it turned out that he didn't even make the donation.

I see things like this all the time on Facebook. It’s quite annoying.

One that was circulating was for boycotting anything Peter Thiel had significant involvement in because he is a major donor to Trump. Not much of a surprise but Theil is either a board member or has invested in many companies... So, the list was large and purely virtue signaling. It had other major donors on it too.

I don’t know if this cancel culture really works for large companies. Most companies have taken money or have board members or high level employees that are on opposing sides of the political spectrum. (With some of both sides who have donated heavily to political campaigns...)

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