Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive • Hacker News Board

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#471

Post by notahacker » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

etherael wrote: post #463

notahacker wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best defense that can be mustered is that the worst authoritarian and theocratic dictatorships of the world do the same thing so it's no big deal? To be fair to you I guess the truth of the matter is that really is the best defense. It just happens to be terrible. It's not a 'defence' but a simple refutation of your claim that companies coming under pressure from some quarters to fire employees for sentiments t…

> It's not a 'defence' but a simple refutation of your claim that companies coming under pressure from some quarters to fire employees for sentiments they have expressed is a uniquely Western thing And it's not a refutation at all, because the examples you cite are themselves restricted to particular jurisdictions (and I'm sure of this because I spent the past ten years travelling the entire world and never saw anyth…

> And it's not a refutation at all, because the examples you cite are themselves restricted to particular jurisdictions (and I'm sure of this because I spent the past ten years travelling the entire world and never saw anything of the magnitude I've seen coming from the west during that period), and the incidents are far more excessive breaches of the local cultural etiquette in incidents where they do end up causing outrage

I've travelled the world too, but with my eyes open :) In that time I've visited countries where literal lynch mobs hunt people accused of participating in the beef trade or having sex before marriage, countries where the mildest of perceived criticisms of royalty will earn you a minimum three year jail term in addition to the lasting enmity of locals, and countries with excruciatingly forced politeness and elaborate systems of honorifics which are a lot harder to grasp than she/her. Those are the nominal democracies, not the ones with supreme leaders or religious absolutists. And there's still well over a quarter of the world where homosexuality isn't merely grounds for firing and shaming your family, but also a criminal offence. Perhaps you believe these cultural norms are more intrinsically worth defending than politeness towards transpeople, but it's safe to say that culture warriors who've been no-platformed by the side of the 'trans debate' they want to silence are raking in donations rather than languishing in jails.

So I'm afraid I find it laughable to hear that people who espouse illiberal views on minorities in the West are unique in the magnitude of their victimhood because they might attract so much attention their book becomes a bestseller or they become elected President of the United States.

One of the consequences of greater levels of free speech is greater exposure to criticism, justified and otherwise.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#472

Post by julianmarq » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

bluntfang wrote: post #454

julianmarq wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to listen and learn how to communicate effectively to the intended audience after a failure occurs. You, accidentally, hit the nail on the head. I'm pretty sure that the intended audience often gets the message just fine. The mobs trying to police everyone else's speech are never the intended audience; they just butt in to try to control how everyone else talks regardless of how much they actually care about the to…

>The mobs trying to police everyone else's speech are never the intended audience If the "mobs" are receiving a message not intended for them, the onus lies on the communicator to resolve this. I also think it's really funny that you're assuming you know what people involved in fighting the slave trade want. Are you currently doing that?

> If the "mobs" are receiving a message not intended for them, the onus lies on the communicator to resolve this.

That's just terrific: I joke around with my friends in private chat, there's a leak, a twitter mob gets ahold of the data and doesn't like my joke. They then try to get me at my job, ultimately getting me fired.

All of that was my fault... As said by you.

> Are you currently doing that?

... I don't know how to answer this. The very root comment you're currently arguing against was made by such a person. We're inside that comment thread...

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#473

Post by vore » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #258

danielheath wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every stable community already has things you can and cannot say (try arguing the merits of pederasty, war, or heroin and see how far you get!)

Challenge accepted. Pederasty is so far from our cultural norms it’s current form is meaningless compared to a socially accepted version. In a society with active mentoring of youth by people across the gender and sexual orientation spectrum pederasty would reduce the stigma’s associated with homosexuals thus increasing social cohesion. War is a stress test for societies. By destroying less efficient social structure…

> Pederasty [...] would reduce the stigma’s associated with homosexuals thus increasing social cohesion.

Increasing acceptance of gay people by checks notes encouraging adults to have sex with minors.

And before you accuse me of cutting out a part of your argument, you haven't actually given a definition of pederasty that's not the one everyone understands, which is "adult men having sex with minors".

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#474

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

jgeada wrote: post #462

I think they're misunderstanding the difference between freedom of speech and not having any negative consequences accruing to you for said speech. Yes, we all agree that government must not censor speech. However, all us other individuals and non-government organizations are certainly free to decide who to associate with and who not to associate with. You are free to say whatever stupid shit you want in public, but…

> "...any negative consequences accruing to you for said speech..."

I see this argument all the time but it's pretty clear that progressives would be livid if an organization/business chose to impose "negative consequences" on one of their won for their progressive beliefs. Quite a double standard.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#475

Post by blub » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #255

ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

> I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now that we've deemed him a heretic unworthy of work? As someone who's a devout Christian, it's quite interesting to me to see how the same anti-patterns which plague zealou…

I've read somewhere once that the PC culture is precisely like a religion, but there is no absolution possible.

You will eventually be damned whatever you do.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#476

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #194

thr999978797 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's maybe important to note that the phrase 'He was no angel' is a common (extremely dark and sarcastic) joke in left-leaning circles around these kind of tragic murders because there is always, without fail, some right-wing effort to paint the victim as some sort of low-life who had it coming one way or the other. Let's be clear: no one, regardless of how much they've fucked up in their lives, deserves to be murder…

> These kinds of arguments are prima facie disgusting and deserve no quarter in civilized discourse. Declaring "no quarter" in actual war is saying that if the enemy decides to surrender to you, and lays down his arms, and hoists the white flag, sticks his hands in the air, then you will shoot and kill him. Declaring "no quarter" in actual war is therefore a violation of the Hague convention. It is "especially forbid…

I also found the "no quarter" phrasing interesting by the parent poster. As countless people have found out across history, those who show no mercy will in turn receive no mercy when they need it.

If pushback against the intolerant aspects of progressivism is occurring even on HN (of all places!), they may need that mercy sooner than they think.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#477

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

[deleted]

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#478

Post by blub » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #392

ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. The thing with situations like this is that it's not that the crowd is reporting that a crime has been committed. It doesn't even matter what was said, it's just that thousands of people are threatening that they will boycott their product. Companies and organisations just need to realise that those people we…

I saw a large thread on a subreddit about music asking others to boycott a specific store because the CEO made a campaign donation to Trump. Several people sounded like they were actual customers...

But the kicker is that in the end it turned out that he didn't even make the donation.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#479

Post by blub » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

nonsince wrote: post #191

ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

People with racist or otherwise regressive views know that these views will (rightly) get them criticised by the majority, and so they won't couch them in those terms precisely, but it's often very clear when you take context into account. I can't speak for this exact case, because we don't know what his exact words were, but it's telling that even your defence of him describes him criticising protesters at a time wh…

It's awesome for real racists that now every minor bullshit is considered racist. Suddenly there's a lot more of them, they're in pretty good company and the term has been diluted into meaninglessness.

Another victory for social justice. Brexit, Trump, you guys just can't stop winning.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#480

Post by lkrubner » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #309

lkrubner wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense is this not the right way forward? This seems to be the trend that’s been with us for at least 20 years. People increasingly pick the news they want to hear.

People might pick the news they want to hear; but thinking this is "fine" is an appeal to ignorance. Ignorance is not strength. For whatever it's worth I was raised dirt poor, central Britain in a city that had been in rapid decline for many decades- Yet I believed, fiercely that Europe was less than Britain, that Muslims were coming for our benefits and our women and that Britains colonial past was something to be a…

Right, but did you believe these things because an algorithm on social media was giving you a limited view of the world?

My own view is that I could limit my intake of knowledge to just a handful of people, but if they were the right people, I’d end up with a more original worldview than if I tried to read “both sides” since “both-sides-ism” tends to reactively assume the people shouting old views loudly represent an entire debate.