Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive • Hacker News Board

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#311

Post by loudtieblahblah » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

TuringTest wrote: post #104

AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

> how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not.* It always has been, but the the arrival of new communication methods has disrupted the traditional channels, and now every idea is propagated to a much larger and looser audience, which aren't aware or don't…

This ignores that the web has birthed a global culture of people where participation in online discussion is the majority of their lives. And they sit around looking to be offended to raise their own social value amonst their online peers.

Being offended is about obtaining value and for mobs to obtain power.

The two way street of both trying to not offend AND the listener trying to honestly interpret what is being said goes out the window

Whenever you have a bad actor on either side of communication, it breaks down.

The common wisdom, though, is that the bad actor is always the speaker.

And its simply not true.

The other problem is, as a culture, everyone is responsible for everyone else's emotions. No one is asked to be responsible for their own.

I don't have a problem with codes of conduct per se.

I do have a problem with a culture that constantly asks people to not be responsible for how they process information. Even negative, even offensive information.

Relationship therapists teach couples to use "I" language vs "you" language to express feelings (Google it if you don't understand)

This way you take responsibility for how external stimuli makes you feel rather than making your partner wholly responsible and thus making discussion adversarial

This problem is happening in FOS projects or even just social media in general.

Everyone is a soccer player, falling down, grabbing their leg hoping to get the most people feeling sorry for them, claiming 1% if the bullies and edgelords out there are some dominant social group. It's crap

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#312

Post by rimliu » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #291

haberman wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trick is to create channels with limited audiences, where you can set an expectation of which ideas are acceptable and which are not. Do you mean that a community could allow argument X, but disallow counter-argument Y? That sounds like a recipe for an echo chamber. I definitely see the benefit in saying that certain topics are out of scope for a given community. But saying which ideas are acceptable and which…

I can't think of many instances of someone sharing a "controversial" opinion where they weren't just regurgitating tired old arguments that are trivially discredited. The easy response is: well if they're trivially rebutted, why not just rebut them? That works once. Twice. Twenty times. It doesn't take long before these "just raising the controversy" comments overwhelm sincere and thought-provoking discussion. A rhet…

By "trivially discredited" do you mean just slapping some "-ist" label and boom, it is done?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#313

Post by AHappyCamper » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #238

AHappyCamper wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up some really interesting ideas, but there are certain times where communication is mission critical - and deeply considering complex communicational structures before posting/conveying information can eventuate in serious injury or loss of life. During those times, you simply need to be able to "get the message out" without worrying about the potential offense that you words may cause to a certain individ…

Can you give me an example of an urgent, mission critical communication that could be offensive to people?

Of course - and thank you for asking. One of my friends is a paramedic who primarily works in ambulances in LA.

One day, he arrives at a scene after a passer-by called 911.

A homeless man is lying on the street on top of garbage and cardboard boxes. There is urine and feces everywhere - it's a bad situation - and there are used needles lying next to the man.

The man is obviously in medical distress, and is unable to respond. When they try to attend to him, he wakes up and swears at them and swats at them, but then says he feels like he's dying and wants help. When they come close again, he again swears at them and swings at them.

As a matter of protocol, they have to radio in to headquarters and explain their situation.

This is tricky - they have to be politically correct about how they describe him. He's visibly degrading quickly, and may soon die if they don't intervene, but instead, they have to spend previous time on the radio making sure they use all the politically terminology so that no offense is caused - describing the homeless in California is a very politically charged subject and they could be disciplined if they use the wrong words.

If he is going into cardiac arrest, seconds can be the difference between life and death, and they're using them on trying to remember all the correct terminology and socially-acceptable phrasing.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#314

Post by rimliu » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

kiplkipl wrote: post #266

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you manage reading every code of conduct and honoring it? The trouble I'm having with social changes, expectations, per person pronouns, and other things is that managing all of these interactions can be a crushing amount of cognitive load. Now that I think about it, it's the same challenge I have with microservices. Formerly simple interactions are now hellza complicated. I'm not fighting the trend. I'm just…

If learning new pronouns was really that difficult, none of your peers would speak more than one language. This is just the way society deals with issues that are personal or to do with respect: you don't ask people why they use Ms., you don't ask why someone hasn't had children, you (probably) don't fistbump strangers, and you feel guilt when you forget someone's name. Similarly, in most of these cases, it's worse t…

Does every person speak differnt language?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#315

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

nmfisher wrote: post #147

missosoup wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple. Name one historical example where this strategy of systemic censorship of an ideology worked and didn't blow back. You can't. There aren't any. It always blows back. America is just failing to learn from a lesson that's been taught to various empires for millennia.

Mainland China. I’m still convinced that it will eventually implode. But it hasn’t yet, and I may well be wrong.

[deleted]

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#316

Post by cglace » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

hbarka wrote: post #273

AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

I’m having a hard time believing that you helped work against slavery, as you say, because to me your follow-comments don’t reconcile with someone empathetic to fighting against an injustice yet dismiss those who have a connection to the injustice as just a PC problem. Did you mean to say that you were just devising an example for argument’s sake?

Wow

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#317

Post by koheripbal » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #19

gamblor956 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your statement intended to be ironic? Gay people were heavily censored in the early 90s outside of cities like San Francisco and West Hollywood. It wasn't until Will and Grace premiered in 1998 that the needle began moving toward acceptance.

I mean, there was literally an official government policy called "Don't ask, don't tell".

Which was entirely reasonable. ...because the point of the military isn't to discuss your gender alignment.

The unfairness of it became obvious when every other enlisted man would talk about their latest sex partner and the gay person had to just stand awkwardly silent.

...but the policy itself was rooted in a reasonable desire for soldiers to focus on soldiering.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#318

Post by snikeris » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 12:59 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #258

danielheath wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every stable community already has things you can and cannot say (try arguing the merits of pederasty, war, or heroin and see how far you get!)

Challenge accepted. Pederasty is so far from our cultural norms it’s current form is meaningless compared to a socially accepted version. In a society with active mentoring of youth by people across the gender and sexual orientation spectrum pederasty would reduce the stigma’s associated with homosexuals thus increasing social cohesion. War is a stress test for societies. By destroying less efficient social structure…

> War is a stress test for societies. By destroying less efficient social structures it promotes long term progress and reduces inefficient practices like slavery.

War destroys progress and is incredibly inefficient. The mere threat of war creates an endless arms race resulting in half of discretionary spending going to defense.

The reason for submitting to government authority is for protection of life and liberty. War results in destruction of life and reduced liberty, so it's a major failure in that regard.

"Sorry ma'am, but your son died in the Great Stress Test of 1861. I know you just spent your last nineteen years raising him, but we weren't sure if slavery was efficient or not, so we needed him to help settle the question on the battlefield."

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#319

Post by camelCaseCamel » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

indigochill wrote: post #307

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you manage reading every code of conduct and honoring it? The trouble I'm having with social changes, expectations, per person pronouns, and other things is that managing all of these interactions can be a crushing amount of cognitive load. Now that I think about it, it's the same challenge I have with microservices. Formerly simple interactions are now hellza complicated. I'm not fighting the trend. I'm just…

>How do you manage reading every code of conduct and honoring it? I don't think perfect adherence should be expected. If there's a code of conduct and someone runs afoul of it, just give them a gentle poke and point them to what they ran afoul of. If they're cool with the code of conduct, great. They fix their behavior and everyone's happy. If they don't like the code of conduct, then they're welcome to join a commun…

Who polices those giving the "boot"? Who polices those police? What about nuances and interpretations and lack of context?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#320

Post by cwhiz » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

yc-kraln wrote: post #107

cwhiz wrote: post #34

Shouting people down in public and on the internet doesn’t change opinions. People just talk more quietly or take more care with whom they share their thoughts and opinions. Cancel culture, outrage culture, and the general “social justice” movement is not much more than a wide scale attempt to silence dissenting thought. Build your own bubble, and shout down anyone who thinks or speaks differently. Yell and call it “…

I don't find it to be controversial that questioning someone's humanity or personhood isn't simply "offensive." I find it very surprising that people chanting anti-Semitic nonsense continue to find acceptance and defenders in the United States. To have a tolerant and open society you need to be intolerant to those who are intolerant. Why is this new or subject to debate?

If you want free speech you have to accept the bad with the good. And if you don’t, well, just go back to your safe bubble.