Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says • Hacker News Board

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#261

Post by abdullahkhalids » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #257

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a power issue. Everyone was aware, but the remaining pilots refused to let the authorities do anything. The only reason this is happening is because of Covid-19. No flights, so pilots can't threaten to boycott flying. Let's see if the authorities have enough political capital to follow through with firing them all.

> No flights, so pilots can't threaten to boycott flying. But why would pilots with valid licenses boycott the government preventing pilots with fake licenses from flying? Wouldn't the valid-license pilots want this, because with less of them their salaries will go up? I can't imagine any scenario where people who passed a test would want people who didn't pass it to get the same benefits...?!?!

It is a state owned company. Pay scales are fixed, and everyone gets a fixed-known pension for life after retirement. So, getting your colleagues fired is not beneficial to you economically [1].

However, an accountability process that looks into the doing of pilots will get both valid license and invalid license holders in trouble, because I assure you, lots of valid license holders are also doing lots of other illegal things. So, its better as a group to resist all attempts at accountability and reform.

[1] Also, you will be surprised how unambitious most people are. Religion being premier in everyone's life means that they care far more about what happens after they die, rather than trying to improve the life and society they have now. Yes, the irony of having fake licenses being not exactly good for their afterlife is lost on them.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#262

Post by t0mas88 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

chooseaname wrote: post #248

briandear wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gear up landings are one of the most common insurance claims for aircraft. It’s more common than you might think, even with experienced pilots.

Is there any kind of indicator in the cockpit to remind the pilot? A light? A voice (like the stall voice), that says, "Hey doofus, you're descending and close to landing, so LOWER THE GEAR!"

There is. Some planes beep, others literally play a warning "too low, gear, too low, gear" in the cockpit and headsets.

But gear up landings don't happen in a normal stable approach in nice weather. Gear up landings happen when something else is going on taking all the pilots' attention. Like in this incident they were too high, too fast and descending too quickly. That causes a lot of other warnings and distractions, so they completely didn't hear the gear warning.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#263

Post by duskwuff » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:34 PM UTC

jessermeyer wrote: post #122

sitic wrote: post #38

From the preliminary report: 'At 500 ft, the FDR indicates: landing gear retracted, slat/flap configuration 3, airspeed 220 knots IAS, descent rate 2000 ft/min. According to the FDR and CVR recordings several warnings and alerts such as over-speed, landing gear not down and ground proximity alerts were disregarded. The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted. The aircraft touched the runway surface on its…

The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. I have my doubts about the quality of the report given the incredible mishandling of the situation. "Imran Narejo, an official of the PIA Pilots Association, said Gul was a seasoned pilot with 18,000 hours of experience including over 4,000 hours in the A320." https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/05/9616e4079ce1-at-l...

> The pilot was reportedly well seasoned.

In routine operations of the plane under normal conditions. If they hadn't gone through proper training, they might lack knowledge of how to respond to abnormal situations.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#264

Post by brnt » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #107

awakeasleep wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe regulation is an essential tool for society, but it is not the whole story- morality plays as large a part. Once the regulation is set, it can easily be undermined. BPA was banned by regulation, so industry developed analogue chemicals with the same properties and began using them. Certain aspects of concrete & steel are regulated, so unethical effort goes into subverting the idea of the law while following…

I used to work in a very process-heavy industry: control software for Medical Devices. People would ask about the benefits of following a rigorous process and my answer was always the same: Process sets a minimum standard, but unless people believe in producing a quality product, that minimum is all you'll ever get.

Oof, that hit close to home. In fact, even when people want to create a quality product, management will find someone who'll just do the minimum faster and for less.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#265

Post by t0mas88 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

SamuelAdams wrote: post #252

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a power issue. Everyone was aware, but the remaining pilots refused to let the authorities do anything. The only reason this is happening is because of Covid-19. No flights, so pilots can't threaten to boycott flying. Let's see if the authorities have enough political capital to follow through with firing them all.

Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? If they really do need the pilots that badly, and the fake pilots demonstrate an interest in the job, why not just pay for their flight training directly and keep them grounded until that training is complete?

That training would probably fail. I've seen a few licensed pilots with a real license from a country that isn't ICAO standard (and I'm going to guess Pakistan is like that as well) sit in flight training. They didn't do very well, lots of bad habits, not a very enthusiastic attitude towards a training they think they don't need.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#266

Post by dbcurtis » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

chooseaname wrote: post #248

briandear wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gear up landings are one of the most common insurance claims for aircraft. It’s more common than you might think, even with experienced pilots.

Is there any kind of indicator in the cockpit to remind the pilot? A light? A voice (like the stall voice), that says, "Hey doofus, you're descending and close to landing, so LOWER THE GEAR!"

A friend of mine that years ago (pre-F-18) was a carrier-rated Navy fighter pilot had, after he got out, flown a Mooney for a couple decades. His wife also a pilot. He always went down the checklist verbally, every time. One time on approach he said: “Gear down. Three in the green.” meaning gear down and locked indicator on all three wheels. His wife said: “You do not have three in the green.”

The human brain is a funny thing. It will convince you of things that are not there just out of habit.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#267

Post by iguy » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

dragandj wrote: post #219

thenewwazoo wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is an excellent example of this. They voluntarily relinquished their nuclear weapons, and now Russian troops have invaded the eastern part of the country.

I’m not so sure that nuclear weapons would help in these kinds of regional conflicts against Russia. It’s not that Russia officially invaded Ukraine (although in practice it did), but it stirred up local population (of largely Russian ethnicity) and then gave them logistical support and protection. So, if Ukraine had nuclear weapons, what would it do with it? Strike Russia, who has many more nuclear warheads, and str…

I agree that Ukraine couldn't have usefully threatened Russia over Crimea. Likewise nukes are no use for minor conflict in Kashmir.

But the game the Pakistanis imagine is different. Their concern (as I understand it) has always been that an existential war for them could be a small, regional, thing for India. Nuclear weapons are a way to change that.

I believe the same fear explains a lot of their meddling in Afghanistan. Having some chaos on their border is one thing, but having a serious independent country which could one day choose to ally with India is regarded as a mortal risk.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#268

Post by woodandsteel » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #220

m3h wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Pakistan, there is a culture of becoming overconfident and ignorant of the rules in the airline industry as the pilots age. This was also noted by the Aviation minister when he presented the PIA crash report to the assembly. It should be noted that two of the previous large crashes involving an Airblue and a Bhoja airplane were both concluded to be pilot error with the report pointing to overconfidence and negativ…

This is indicative of a systemic culture of rule breaking. This is common in all government run systems. "The system is too arduous, doesn't reflect the 'real world.' We know better than the system, we know what really matters." Eventually you have a bunch of John Waynes playing fast and loose with the rules, eventually they become emboldened, and since the government is famously bad at policing itself, these attitud…

>This is common in all government run systems

No, that is not at all true. There are lots of government run systems, like the health care systems in most developed countries, that are just fine. The problem with Pakistan is it has a highly corrupt culture in general and in government in particular. That is no doubt why so many of the airline pilots were able to get hired without a legal licence.

Your general claim and the fact that you bring up Hillary Clinton as an example makes me think that you believe in the crackpot libertarian view that modern societies would be vastly better if we basically got rid of the government except for a few, narrow areas.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#269

Post by valuearb » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #96

VBprogrammer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that they where around 80 knots faster than they should have been probably helped a lot. That's a heck of a lot of excess energy.

From what I can find the Airbus also requires the weight on wheels and the wheels speed sensors to have spun up before it will apply reverse thrust. Obviously the brakes also only work when the wheels are down. Auto-spoilers wouldn't deploy automatically also.

If I understand correctly does that mean they tried reversers, but they didn’t work so that’s why they initiated a go round?

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#270

Post by woodandsteel » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #184

yingw787 wrote: post #21

Older article, but apparently Pakistan carts its nuclear weapons around in regular delivery vans: https://www.wired.com/2011/11/pakistan-nukes-delivery-vans/ I personally think this is a bad idea.

It's not a completely illogical approach. An armored convoy stands out like a sore thumb in Rawalpindi. An ordinary slightly beat up, 6-8 year old Suzuki Bolan does not. Maybe send out a few decoy high security vehicles with uniformed crews going in a few different directions, and then send out the Bolan going elsewhere. Bolan: https://www.google.com/search?q=suzuki+bolan&client=ubuntu&h...

Except if you have a spy in the group that transport the bombs, they just tip off some people with guns to grab it. And given the number of Islamist extremists in Pakistan and how much they would love to have a bomb, it seems rather likely that sooner or later they would get a spy installed.