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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#611

Post by pnako »

hef19898 wrote: post #594
pnako wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a speech on Islamic separatism in France, by current President Macron (in French, obviously): https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2020/02/18/proteger-le... He is using multiple times the expression "quartiers de reconquête républicaine" ("suburbs for the Republic to re-conquer"). If the President of a country considers he needs to reconquer parts of his own country, don't you think there is a bit of a probl…

I think you are missing very important nuance there. But since you are so familiar with French politics, you will figure it out.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.

You might think there is some nuance because the areas with risk of Islamic separatism are not _necessarily_ the same as the high-crime areas where the police cannot easily go. But in practice they definitely are. It's not a pleasant situation, but it's the situation.

I can give more background if you are interested, but it is a well-studied problem with no solution in sight.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#612

Post by mcv »

thayne wrote: post #555
flarg wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with your framing of the police as criminals because it misses the point; the police are not criminals, the law and the legal establishment fully supports their actions. Those actions are institutionally racist as they are intended to be. There are no bad apples here, it's the barrel that is rotten.

On the contrary. Many of these actions are illegal, sometimes even unconstitutional. There may be other laws that make it difficult, or impossible to actually enforce laws against police brutality, but that doesn't change the fact that police officers are breaking the law.

Technically illegal but still legally protected. It's the hypocrisy of law enforcement.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#613

Post by mcv »

irjustin wrote: post #589
flarg wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with your framing of the police as criminals because it misses the point; the police are not criminals, the law and the legal establishment fully supports their actions. Those actions are institutionally racist as they are intended to be. There are no bad apples here, it's the barrel that is rotten.

> There are no bad apples here I don't understand. You're saying that individual police members are not at fault for their actions? That the police institution is rotten (barrel) but stops at the individual officer (apple)? I 100% agree that the barrel is rotten, but there are plenty of bad individuals as a result of the barrel being rotten for so long. A way to test this, change the 'barrel' and see which 'apples' s…

Of course individual police officers are at fault, but it's also the entire system that is rotten. The system creates these rotten police officers, encourages and protects them, and allowed them to spread the rot.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#614

Post by justin66 »

austincheney wrote: post #464
justin66 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally every person who is advocating for greater police accountability is, by definition, advocating for better data. I don't think there's an argument here about that. The point of disagreement would seem to be, most people don't believe being unable to fully quantify the corruption of the police means it does not exist.

The point isn’t whether there is corruption or not. In any government there is always some degree of perceived corruption. The point is the prevalence of corruption. Without some form of objective measure claiming corruption is largely meaningless, because there is nothing specifically identifiable to change.

> The point is the prevalence of corruption. Without some form of objective measure claiming corruption is largely meaningless, because there is nothing specifically identifiable to change.

This is particularly tone deaf in light of the subject matter of the article. I can point to specific things that happened and say "that should not be permitted" or "this is evidence of a corrupt system that is not holding itself to account." I can do this before I know precisely how often it's happening, and it would be wrong not to do that.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#615

Post by xg15 »

irjustin wrote: post #589
flarg wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with your framing of the police as criminals because it misses the point; the police are not criminals, the law and the legal establishment fully supports their actions. Those actions are institutionally racist as they are intended to be. There are no bad apples here, it's the barrel that is rotten.

> There are no bad apples here I don't understand. You're saying that individual police members are not at fault for their actions? That the police institution is rotten (barrel) but stops at the individual officer (apple)? I 100% agree that the barrel is rotten, but there are plenty of bad individuals as a result of the barrel being rotten for so long. A way to test this, change the 'barrel' and see which 'apples' s…

You're driving the metapthor too far, I honestly don't get your point. Are you're saying we shouldn't touch the institution of police and just replace the individual police members?

To my knowledge, that is what has been done until now - and it evidently didn't work.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#616

Post by eloff »

pierrebai wrote: post #246
eMSF wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one o…

Resisting arrest should not lead to death. There is no urgency to shoot someone who is drunk in the back as he is fleeing when you have his car in your possession. Polices are using unnecessarily lethal force indiscriminately for offenses and in situations that don't require in the least. They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general…

Exactly this. The force used should always match the situation. Deadly force should not be used ever on an unarmed individual. Police should have to face trial if a prosecutor believes a case can be made that the force used was inappropriate - no special protections.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#617

Post by eloff »

eMSF wrote: post #343
pierrebai wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resisting arrest should not lead to death. There is no urgency to shoot someone who is drunk in the back as he is fleeing when you have his car in your possession. Polices are using unnecessarily lethal force indiscriminately for offenses and in situations that don't require in the least. They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general…

>Resisting arrest should not lead to death Yes, the world is not perfect in many ways. That does not remove the logical fallacy of implying that because police are ( wrongly , as you say) a mortal threat to those who resist arrests, therefore police are one of the biggest threats (if not the threat) in an average black persons life. The recent two cases do not offer convincing evidence for the latter (although other…

I think you're correct. They're likely not the biggest threat. That's probably heart disease, cancer, or diabetes in the US. Violence of any kind is way down the list for most people.

I don't think they have to be the biggest threat to acknowledge that the police are out of control and above the law. Fix them, or abolish them and recreate them if they can't be fixed.

This issue goes well beyond racism. Blacks feel it the most, but this problem affects everybody. Nobody wants police that can steal from you (civil forfeiture) or assault or even kill you without sufficient reason or consequences.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#618

Post by sixothree »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #428
sixothree wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait. Do we have actual numbers of police shootings? Aren't these things self-reported and under-reported?

I think total killings are pretty accurately reporting. There were about 1100 police killings in 2019. This includes people shot or beaten to death by officers on or off duty. [1] About 10% of these people were unarmed. This statistic is the one which is most likely under-reported. About 50 police are feloniously killed per year [2] [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ [2] https://www.fbi.…

Thank you.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#619

Post by kerkeslager »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #479
kerkeslager wrote: post #39

I keep seeing this narrative where people say, "We need law enforcement to prevent crimes, we can't defund the police." And I 100% agree, we need law enforcement. But the police aren't law enforcement if they refuse to enforce the laws .

> But the police aren't law enforcement if they refuse to enforce the laws. Sure. That's obviously true. However, not very helpful to the discussion as you don't state what percent of police officers "refuse to enforce the laws" Do 100% of police officers refuse to enforce laws? 50%? 5%. Surely that's more beneficial to talk about than simply saying "the sky isn't blue if it isn't blue".

While Derek Chauvin was murdering George Floyd, 100% of the officers present did not enforce the law.

While Daniel Pantaleo was murdering Erik Garner, 100% of the officers present did not enforce the law, and at least a significant percentage of the court system which did not convict Pantaleo did not enforce the law.

When Philip Brailsford murdered Daniel Shaver, 100% of the officers present did not enforce the law by arresting him. A significant percentage of the court system which did not convict him of any crime didn't enforce the law. The police department which reinstated him and then let him medically retire due to PTSD from the murder he committed and pays him $2,500/month pension didn't enforce the law.

Since three police officers murdered Breonna Taylor, 100% of the police in Louisville Metro Police Department has not enforced the law.

When ex-cops murdered Ahmaud Arbery, 100% of Glynn County Police Department did not enforce the law until months later after massive outcry, and more than one DA refused to enforce the law.

When a homeless man in a wheelchair was shot in the face with a rubber bullet by LAPD, 100% of the LAPD did not enforce the law. When Buffalo PD officers assaulted a 75 year old man, 100% of the officers present did not enforce the law, and 100% of the 57 SWAT members resigned from the SWAT team when other police did enforce the law. When Denver PD shot tear at a pregnant woman and her husband who were uninvolved in protests, 100% of Denver PD did not enforce the law. When a Philly PD officer knelt on a man while he said, "I can't breathe" and the officer responded, "Shut up asshole. Are you fucking stupid? That shit don't work here" 100% of Philly PD did not enforce the law.

With the exception of Breonna Taylor, these are just some of the incidents that were caught on video. There are many, many more on video, and we can only guess how many incidents weren't caught on video.

Obviously I'm not going to be able to give you an exact percentage number of how many police officers refuse to enforce laws when cops commit crimes, but how many examples do you need to see before you will admit it's too much for the current system to be salvageable?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#620

Post by randompwd »

freeopinion wrote: post #469
randompwd wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This attitude is exactly part of the problem No, it's reallt not. The continued projection of American racial and socio-economic issues in to other English speaking countries by dimwits is the issue. If you actually watched the (heavily edited by the guardian) video, you would see the cop was calm and polite the entire duration. > It was established in court that the windows were not illegally tinted. Yes, and the…

When I put myself in the place of the constable, he seemed to be calm and polite. I understand how frustrating it is when you are trying to do your job and people won't cooperate. That is not the question. The assertion is that the lady was terrified, the constable failed to acknowledge this, and failed to act appropriately. The constable doesn't seem like a raging racist to me. That makes this video even more import…

The car was stopped by police while she was driving (other aticles mention it was a hard stop- cop car pulled in front of her)

> Just chill for 10 minutes

Not an option AT ALL. Chill outside the vehicle is what was offered to her, she refused

Once stopped, that woman is in police custody. If anything happens her or she injures herself whilst in police custody, it is a MASSIVE deal.

As the officer knows nothing about this woman other than she is refusing to engage, he had reason to believe she may have something in the car which was of danger to the woman herself or others. This may be something as benign as a bag of drugs which she then chokes on. Ridiculous as it sounds, that's why policies and procedures are put in place.

At the end of the day, coppers on the street who interact with the public everyday are much more attuned to peoples behaviour than armchair experts on the internet.

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