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My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

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Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#551

Post by c22 »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #284
bradly wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Black or white statistically you are far more likely to be killed (or assaulted) by non-police Of the same race as you. That really doesn't matter that much. If a stranger assaults someone and a police office assaults someone, those are not equal. The stranger can be tried and convicted, but the police officer not as easily if at all. Also the stranger is a stranger, while the police officer I pay for and exists to…

> That really doesn't matter that much. I assure you it matters to the victims and their families. And I don’t disagree about the morality of police abusing their powers...but a death is a death and a tragedy is a tragedy. No one is celebrating the death of their loved one no matter what the killers skin color or occupation. > That is so much worse than a stranger doing those things. Again it’s not like the victim of…

> Again it’s not like the victim of a sexual assault is saying thank god I was rapped by a non-officer.

Aside from the fact that such a victim may very well feel that way (or more likely the inverse: I wish the person who raped me had not been an officer so I could seek justice) this observation seems orthogonal to the point since it is a question of perception.

The person who has not (yet) been raped is justified in being more fearful of a random police officer than of another random human because there is the perception (and indeed often the reality) that the police officer is able to act with impunity.

Also, for some groups, each interaction with a stranger comes with a small chance that they are a criminal who seeks to do you harm, but interacting with police carries a near 100% chance that they are suspicious of you and carefully watching your every move looking to find any justification to bust you.

I am not black and I am more fearful/wary of police officers than other strangers on the street. I never even considered the actual odds before.

I have been pepper sprayed by police officers for consuming cannabis in public. I have been mugged in the night by a black man with a gun. The mugger never pointed his gun at me. When he found the food stamps in my wallet he gave it back to me and told me to "stay safe". I am more scared of random police officers than I am of black men I encounter.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#552

Post by renewiltord »

pnako wrote: post #496
hef19898 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. My wife is french, never really about that. Also, Berlin is assumed to have some. I drank beer in bar in one of those once. Found about it later. So, I assume a lot of propaganda around that?

Why would it be propaganda? Is it inconceivable for you that such places could exist?

I'm only a little hesitant to believe this because people say this about lots of places in San Francisco ("don't go there, it's dangerous") etc. and my parents in their 60s go there quite often and they don't think it's particularly bad. And I recall people saying that about London too and the so-called no-go zones were not really that.

I don't think it's political. I think some people have just grown up in very safe environments and have a smaller comfort zone.

Of course if you're intimately familiar with this by living in France or something I wouldn't question it, but if you're just looking in from the outside, then it's all shadows on a cave wall.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#553

Post by jeffdavis »

unethical_ban wrote: post #497
jeffdavis wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have aggregate numbers on how that compares to getting similar treatment from criminals?

You keep on asking for quantitative proof that the citizens of a democracy are scared of their police system. Recent protests and police reactions should be a starting point. I assume you ignored and downvoted my other comment explaining the philosophy behind it, so I won't repost it.

FWIW I did not downvote anyone in this thread. I feel like the worst motivations are being assigned to me throughout this thread. If anyone cares, no, I do not have bad intentions. I saw some claims that were hard to reconcile with the data I had. That's really all. I don't want anyone to suffer, and I know blacks disproportionately suffer police violence and ordinary violence.

My takeaway here is that people simply care A LOT more about police violence than ordinary violence, something like 20X.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#554

Post by pnako »

hef19898 wrote: post #524
pnako wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be propaganda? Is it inconceivable for you that such places could exist?

So, all of these places I saw portrait as such in media, mostly conservative to right leaning ones in Europe, or FOX news, turned out to be no no-go areas in reality. Using footage from demonstrations that got out of hand, civil unrest at one point and overblown as well as wrongly cited numbers are all that is to that. And yes, in Europe there is no such thing as no-go zone where police don't go and all you have is a…

This is a speech on Islamic separatism in France, by current President Macron (in French, obviously):

https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2020/02/18/proteger-le...

He is using multiple times the expression "quartiers de reconquête républicaine" ("suburbs for the Republic to re-conquer").

If the President of a country considers he needs to reconquer parts of his own country, don't you think there is a bit of a problem, beyond whatever Fox News might say?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#555

Post by thayne »

flarg wrote: post #539
dragonwriter wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notice that while average white parents might worry about criminals before letting their kids out on the street, the black parents worry (with good reason) about the police They are both worried about criminals. The fact that some criminals have badges and guns and a conspiracy of accomplices in positions of power shielding them from accountability for their crimes doesn't make them any less criminals. > Just to sp…

I take issue with your framing of the police as criminals because it misses the point; the police are not criminals, the law and the legal establishment fully supports their actions. Those actions are institutionally racist as they are intended to be. There are no bad apples here, it's the barrel that is rotten.

On the contrary. Many of these actions are illegal, sometimes even unconstitutional. There may be other laws that make it difficult, or impossible to actually enforce laws against police brutality, but that doesn't change the fact that police officers are breaking the law.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#556

Post by Anechoic »

jeffdavis wrote: post #553
unethical_ban wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep on asking for quantitative proof that the citizens of a democracy are scared of their police system. Recent protests and police reactions should be a starting point. I assume you ignored and downvoted my other comment explaining the philosophy behind it, so I won't repost it.

FWIW I did not downvote anyone in this thread. I feel like the worst motivations are being assigned to me throughout this thread. If anyone cares, no, I do not have bad intentions. I saw some claims that were hard to reconcile with the data I had. That's really all. I don't want anyone to suffer, and I know blacks disproportionately suffer police violence and ordinary violence. My takeaway here is that people simply…

Black Americans care about police violence because we need to have a good relationship with authorities to help with the other problems (including, yes, black-on-black crime). That's why you see support in the black community both for "defunding" police and more police presence in high-crime neighborhoods.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#557

Post by c22 »

jeffdavis wrote: post #287
shadowgovt wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder is an understood societal outlier that society doesn't tolerate. Society is disquietingly tolerant of murder when the murderer is wearing a badge and executing a suspect "In the line of duty." If not for the nationwide protests, it is extremely likely the murderers of George Floyd would still be employed by their police departments, forget arrested.

"Society is disquietingly tolerant of murder when the murderer is wearing a badge" I agree. But the original post seemed to be saying that it was rational for blacks to be carefree about criminals and afraid of police, which just doesn't seem in line with the data. And it's also disquieting how little people seem to care about murder victims, who are much more numerous and also disproportionately black (by a greater…

Criminals don't wear uniforms, you can't tell them apart from regular people when you see them in public. Regular people who mean you no harm outnumber criminals significantly and it would be absurd to fear them.

Police officers are instantly recognizable. If you're statistically more likely to be harmed by the police than by a regular person then it is completely rational to be concerned when you see one.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#558

Post by christophilus »

bane wrote: post #71

When I was younger I lived in a fairly rural area. I was driving home late from work one day on a remote highway and came across one of the most horrific accidents I've ever seen. A driver was pulling onto the highway and was hit by a police cruiser at an almost impossibly high speed. The highway was marked at 55mph, and under normal conditions, the driver of the other car would have had plenty of time to pull out, s…

Not as egregious, but I once was pulled for accelerating into traffic. The officer told me that onramps “aren’t like yellow lights where you speed up to get through...” I was dumbfounded. Anyway, fortunately, I knew a judge and got it dropped but that idiot is probably still out there bringing misery to others.

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#559

Post by fzeroracer »

austincheney wrote: post #431
fzeroracer wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your original question was 'where's the data'. I provided the data. How does that not answer it?

Original question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23616331

Yes, and I provided you evidence. You claimed in an earlier post

> In so many of these police related threads on HN lately people make absurd claims and then are upset when asked about data or objectivity

And I provided you exactly what you wanted. Yet you seem to be dismissing said evidence out of...? Your feelings?

Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works

#560

Post by DenisM »

Pfhreak wrote: post #544
DenisM wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to have links. "defended police in well documented cases of retaliatory and unbecoming behavior" is bit too vague to follow up upon.

Sure, here's a handful: https://komonews.com/news/local/police-union-president-defen... https://mynorthwest.com/70234/police-union-head-vehemently-d... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/07/13/se... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/memo-seattle... http://www.courts.wa.gov/content/publicupload/eclips/2015%20... https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article64596437.ht... https://www.…

Clicked the last link from your list, see this: The two were already struggling when Levias' friend, a 17-year-old, pushed the officer, and he responded by punching the friend in the face.

Is this the sort of thing you consider outrageous?

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