Earlier quoted context omitted.
As to murder: White Murder victims: 3,499 (2,854 of the victims were killed by other whites) Black murder victims: 2,870 (2,570 of the victims were killed by other blacks) 2019 police killings by race: White deceased: 370 Black deceased: 235
First, the fact that you are only 10 times more likely to die from a civilian as from a police officer is an appallingly bad ratio . That ratio should be over 100:1, not 10:1, and certainly not 9:1. This conversation is missing another statistic: The percent of citizens who are also LEOs, which I'm seeing is about 1 in 300. Which means your chances of dying during an encounter with a random civilian are about 30 time…
My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
321–330 of 650 posts
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#322I've lived here a long time and come to the realization through observation that the NYPD operates like a private security force for capital. Their primary concern is to defend private property, the people themselves come second. The "community outreach" they do is just enough to keep us from getting accusatory.
Law and Order takes a different meaning when the thing about order is not about having a peaceful society, but an obedient society that keeps the status quo and the order of importance between the rich and poor.
The original Latin reflects the broader meaning of any pattern relationship, literally threads in a weave.
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one o…
Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?
What I actually implied was that I hardly think these two are very good examples of “average” persons, or “average” black persons, which should be taken into consideration in parent's logic.
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In your mind what is this a proxy for? Criminality, like I said. I don't see anywhere in your post where you actually addressed the point I made. Again, that is if Black people commit X times as many crimes we should expect X times as many negative police interactions. Whether that be excessive violence or innocents being swept up in police action or anything else.
I addressed it by disagreeing with and refuting it. You assumed there was a consensus and agreement on the merits, there is no such consensus ; criminality cannot be a proxy for criminality-at least I don't believe that to be the case. From this, allow me to make my position more clear: No, we shouldn't "expect" an increase in police violence in response to black criminality , because it assumes violence is the appro…
... It's not an increase. Police misconduct occurs in some percentage of interactions. More interactions = more police misconduct.
> If I blind fired my weapon onto the streets and bullets went into someone's home, I'd be arrested and charged.
And if you handcuffed someone and locked them in your basement you'd be arrested and charged.
It's hard to debate someone that doesn't understand basic concepts like this. Good luck to you.
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black. As you point out yourself, it doesn't necessarily if you consider the average black person. The average black person is not a gang member, not a criminal and doesn't hang out with those groups. It may very well be that for such a person the police are a bigger risk than criminals. It's simp…
Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person? Of the two incidents that have caused much civil unrest lately (enough to be heard of on this side of the Atlantic) there's been one walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances (per the autopsy), and another one passed out drunk driver, with both of course resisting arrest after it is inevitable (with one o…
Also FYI, in the case of Rayshard Brooks (the victim who took the officer's Taser), the District Attorney said that the Taser "had already been fired twice and was thus empty and no longer a threat". https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-atlanta-ra...
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
>If that's happening 10x as often then innocent kids in that neighborhood are going to be 10x as likely to be swept up in police action. Why do you consider it okay for police to stop and harass innocent people with no evidence simply because they live in a certain neighborhood?
Where did I say that it was okay for police to stop and harass innocent people?
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
Until someone decides that the capital committed a drug crime because it smelled suspicious.
You're confusing private property with personal property. The police don't care about your personal property. Just try to get them to do anything useful in response to a burglary. Private property, like land, or the means of production, is an entirely different story. Those things receive full police protection.
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…
How confident are you that your numbers are accurate, given that police self-report their numbers? For instance, I've been reading lately that black men have been found hanging from trees by nooses in California recently, and that the deaths were ruled suicide. Do you believe that these deaths were suicide?
I guess there could be outright premeditated cold-blooded murders that are disguised as suicides, but I can't imagine that's very common. I mean, you can't bring a body in with a zillion bullet holes and tell the coroner it was suicide. And, as you point out, a noose is going to (hopefully) generate a lot of suspicion and a thorough investigation.
The main area of uncertainty is not the number of police killings, but the number of justified versus unjustified killings.
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. I'm having a hard time figuring out the truth on this particular point. I've seen conflicting reports, such as this study from a black Harvard economics professor which found no racial bias [0]. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evi...
Black people are certainly killed by police at a disproportionate rate relative to their population, that is an objective fact. This does not necessarily imply that there is racial bias by the police, however. For example if black people encounter the police 2-3x as much, you would expect them to be killed by police more frequently as well even without any bias.
A study found that white police are no more likely to shoot minorities than non-white police, but that is dismissed as flawed reasoning. [1]
Another study examining lethal and non-lethal interactions with police;
> In the raw data, blacks are 21.3 percent more likely to be involved in an interaction with police in which at least a weapon is drawn than whites and the difference is statistically significant. Adding our full set of controls reduces the racial difference to 19.4 percent.
> In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. [2]
I think at this point the statistics can be used to argue both ways.
I think what’s left behind is the undeniable fact that certain inner cities are more like war zones than civilian population centers with the number of daily shooting and killings. Chicago just saw 18 murders in 24 hours, or nearly ~4,500 shootings per year. [3]
According to the Washington Post last year there were 9 fatal shootings of unarmed black people by police (19 of white people). Fatal police shootings in total were about 1,000 and ~25% were black, a number that under-represents black people relative to the rate of violent crime.
Compare to what the Atlantic describes as the “homicide plague afflicting black America“ of black on black civilian violence, which claims nearly 100,000 lives per decade. This is not whataboutism, this is flip sides of the same coin, because while “defunding” police can reduce the total number of armed and unarmed black people killed by police a maximum of ~2,500 per decade, what will it do to the 100,000 killed per decade in inner city gang wars?
In my estimation, the vilification of police as racist, declarations of “ACAB” and “Fuck 12”, and calling to abolish or defund the police is more likely to result in significantly more dangerous environments where the majority of black homicides are occurring.
[1] - https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/study-claims-white-p...
[2] - https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/l...
[3] - https://www.chicagotribune.com/data/ct-shooting-victims-map-...
Re: My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how NYPD impunity works
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x. For such a remote occurrance, a small factor doesn't justify the difference between carefree and paralyzed by fear. Automobile accidents kill a lot more people than police do, but I doubt most people bother to know the risks of cars within a factor of 2-3x. The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. Blacks are also dis…
Blacks are killed by police disproportionately by a factor of around 2-3x The fear may be there, but I don't see it justified in the numbers. It's not just about getting killed - it's about getting unfairly fined, arrested, beaten, jailed, and so on. From my own life experience, the fear is warranted.