You download the app and it doesn’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#431

Post by Wowfunhappy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:05 AM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #422

brandon272 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely - Apple can have whatever terms it wants within the bounds of the law. And app developers have every right to complain about those terms, loudly and in a sustained fashion, if they wish. The second part there is what a lot of people seem to have difficulty accepting.

It’s easy to accept that you have a right to complain. But after ten years of perfect clarify about how Apple intends to play this, your supposed outrage that the iPhone is still a walled garden seems willfully thick. I’d be so impressed if one of you would just head over to Android and make a non-iPhone app that took the world by storm. Prove to us all that the 30% is a bad bargain, that Apple needs to change, that…

I was complaining ten years ago too. Time doesn't make problems magically go away.

But, it's also becoming more and more critical as phones take an increasingly central roll in our lives.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#432

Post by chipotle_coyote » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:06 AM UTC

brandon272 wrote: post #362

ilikehurdles wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter. These are the terms of the store. If Walmart makes clear an expectation that you have to have an office in Arkansas in order to sell an item in their store, then you shouldn’t be surprised when your item is rejected from their store if you don’t build that office. There’s no expectation that you’d have free placement, certainly. As for your Best Buy example, Best Buy can make that demand, but Best…

I agree completely - Apple can have whatever terms it wants within the bounds of the law. And app developers have every right to complain about those terms, loudly and in a sustained fashion, if they wish. The second part there is what a lot of people seem to have difficulty accepting.

Companies have certainly complained, loudly and in a sustained fashion, about dealing with certain brick-and-mortar stores over the years.

(Apple is in a frustratingly unique position compared to Walmart, Target, Best Buy, et. al., of course, in that the App Store is the way to get applications onto iPhones.)

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#433

Post by thrwyoilarticle » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:06 AM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #268

detaro wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you price your subscriptions purely by the marginal expense of serving the content/service to another customer? Or do you price them according to what the market will pay for your product?

Totally different. The goal here is to maximize my profit and minimize my expenses.

It's not different, both are price discrimination. If they cut the price for the expensive products' apps, they'll have to raise it for the inexpensive products' apps. If the inexpensive products can't afford it, they won't have an app.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#434

Post by twicetwice » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:06 AM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #383

manfredo wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference is that the App store is the only way of running apps on an iDevice outside of rooting it (which for >99% of users means it's the only way of running apps). Apple needs to be transparent that it's not selling devices, it's licensing devices. Users do not control the devices they own.

There are PWAs. I know PWAs have massive limitations, but there are some work-arounds. They just aren't great.

Apple deliberately cripples PWAs on their devices for exactly this reason. I get it, but I hate them for it.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#435

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:07 AM UTC

realtalk_sp wrote: post #198

Spivak wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why though? Apple is well-aware of their worth in your sales funnel and know that customer acquisition outside of their store/devices is a lot more expensive. Nobody would be complaining if you Apple's user-base wasn't so juicy that your best option is forking over 30%. If it was easy to acquire customers outside the store it wouldn't even be an issue.

You've repeated this argument several times and you're starting to sound like an Apple shill. The idea that the App Store (with 2M+ apps) is a meaningful source of customer acquisition is utter horseshit. In fact it's now the opposite since Apple will sometimes place ads for competitor apps ahead of your own in search results.

This is the second time in less than a day that you've broken HN's guideline against accusations of shillage, astroturfing, etc. It says this:

Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data.

That rule is in place for good reason: the overwhelming majority of such accusations are pure imagination, which makes them poison. It's also a cheap, aggressive internet tactic, which makes it ubiquitous. Cheap ubiquitous poison is an environmental hazard, especially on a site which is trying to deviate from internet default, so it needs to be regulated. This rule is how we do that here. There is plenty of past explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... for anyone who wants it.

Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#436

Post by simion314 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:09 AM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #200

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can use Google Chrome, and still use a non-Google search engine. I can use a Kindle, and still read DRM-Free epubs. Yes, all the major tech companies are engaged in rent seeking. But Apple is the only one that says users must either must pay rent or throw away their hardware. The App Store and its policies are not the problem. The App Store is Apple's store, just like Amazon.com is Amazon's store. But the App Store…

I can’t relate to this. Some vendors sell me hardware, and I can bring my own software. Apple sells me more expensive hardware with the software only from their “partners”, which is “curated” and subject to a steep 30% distribution cut. Apple never tricked me into an iPhone believing I could run any random software. I know what I signed up for. Why should I feel entitled to anything else?

>I know what I signed up for. Why should I feel entitled to anything else?

Maybe you are happy with one of the 2 shitty choices, but there might be people that would prefer to not be forced to chose what shit taste better, it is live you live in place and you have only 2 drinking water choices, both contain different poisons but you have a choice, why should people complain and try to fix a bad situation when you could chose your poison? I seen lots complaining that there is not enough competiotion in X or Y market (like mobile or ISPs ) but Apple fans don't want more competition on the iOS, you wouild thinkt he average Apple user would have been already scammed 100 times on their Macbooks because of the missing walls , this is how hard the security excuse is mentioned.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#437

Post by twicetwice » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:10 AM UTC

screwycaboose wrote: post #400

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #315

I am amazed how many people on HN are defending Apple. I had the naive assumption that my fellow tech savvy would denounce this. The comments here are eye-opening. It is as if a lot of people just don’t see or don’t care about monopoly or monopolistic behavior. The product is great, Apple is has the highest market cap of any company in the world, it’s founder has god-like status. What’s the problem?

Because it's not a monopoly. Apple is roughly half of the marketshare in the US, and dramatically lower than that worldwide. They're also not saying that Hey can't be in their store, or even needs to pay them anything. Hey could offer a free tier and wouldn't owe Apple a dime. Basecamp already does this so they know it very well.

They certainly have a monopoly on "distributing software to iPhones." I don't get why no one makes this point. One could argue it's a monopoly they've earned. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But certainly there is a market for iPhone app distribution, and Apple has a monopoly in that market.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#438

Post by p1necone » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:11 AM UTC

jeffchien wrote: post #333

pdonis wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it unethical to charge a fee to developers who want to distribute their software through an app store that Apple owns? I get that it's unpleasant for developers who don't like the policy, and at some point it might have business consequences for Apple if they don't change the policy, but why is it unethical?

>Why is it unethical to charge a fee to developers who want to distribute their software through an app store that Apple owns? This is only part of the complaint, right? The other parts is that: * Apple has the only keys to the hardware platform. * This is in contrast to Google or Steam, who also charge 30%, but do not completely own access to their respective hardware platforms. * This is also in contrast to physica…

The fourth bullet point is the most egregious to me. These policies are so overbearing that they're actually untenable, but Apple just gets around that by arbitrarily giving exceptions to companies that are big enough to affect their bottom line.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#439

Post by ratww » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:11 AM UTC

twicetwice wrote: post #426

ratww wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP asked " why software makers should share their revenue with Apple " and said "nothing else" is like that. I was just pointing examples of things that were exactly like that. As for the why: I'm thinking from the point of view of a developer. For me it's all the same. Paying 30% to Apple is the same as paying 30% to Steam or x% to console makers. In practice it doesn't matter if the appliance the user runs my softw…

Well, I don't think paying 30% to Apple is the same as paying 30% to Steam. The former is mandatory, the latter is not. If you don't want to be on Steam, you can put your game in the Windows store/etc, or sell directly from your website. If you don't want to be on Apple's app store, well, too bad, it's the only way to reach 50+% of your potential customers (in the US).

In theory, yes. In practice, not publishing a game on Steam will also alienate you from a large amount of potential customers. We're only starting to see change recently. But I understand your point and agree in principle. What's your opinion on consoles, though?

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#440

Post by jpttsn » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:12 AM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #421

jpttsn wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not tricking people into buying iPhones, believing every app is available. “There’s an app for that” doesn’t mean “every single app for that is available”. It means there are many apps, all of which found 30% to be acceptable. If Apple had promised customers that Age of Empires runs on Macs, then they would have a hard time getting Microsoft to give them 30%. But Apple has made not such promise to consumers.…

> If Apple had promised customers that Age of Empires runs on Macs, then they would have a hard time getting Microsoft to give them 30%. But Apple has made not such promise to consumers. Given that Age of Empires has actually had Mac versions, I'm not sure this is the comparison you're looking for here. :)

Off topic but okay, let’s specify Definitive Edition.