You download the app and it doesn’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#421

Post by chipotle_coyote » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #345

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know what I signed up for. Why should I feel entitled to anything else? It's interesting you'd say that because it's actually not true (I am not accusing you of lying at all - I take your statement at face value!) What I mean is the following: When I buy a phone - no matter the maker - I have deep within me a default assumption that if I want some app, some provider, some service, some feature, on my phone - that…

Apple is not tricking people into buying iPhones, believing every app is available. “There’s an app for that” doesn’t mean “every single app for that is available”. It means there are many apps, all of which found 30% to be acceptable. If Apple had promised customers that Age of Empires runs on Macs, then they would have a hard time getting Microsoft to give them 30%. But Apple has made not such promise to consumers.…

> If Apple had promised customers that Age of Empires runs on Macs, then they would have a hard time getting Microsoft to give them 30%. But Apple has made not such promise to consumers.

Given that Age of Empires has actually had Mac versions, I'm not sure this is the comparison you're looking for here. :)

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#422

Post by jpttsn » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

brandon272 wrote: post #362

ilikehurdles wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter. These are the terms of the store. If Walmart makes clear an expectation that you have to have an office in Arkansas in order to sell an item in their store, then you shouldn’t be surprised when your item is rejected from their store if you don’t build that office. There’s no expectation that you’d have free placement, certainly. As for your Best Buy example, Best Buy can make that demand, but Best…

I agree completely - Apple can have whatever terms it wants within the bounds of the law. And app developers have every right to complain about those terms, loudly and in a sustained fashion, if they wish. The second part there is what a lot of people seem to have difficulty accepting.

It’s easy to accept that you have a right to complain. But after ten years of perfect clarify about how Apple intends to play this, your supposed outrage that the iPhone is still a walled garden seems willfully thick.

I’d be so impressed if one of you would just head over to Android and make a non-iPhone app that took the world by storm. Prove to us all that the 30% is a bad bargain, that Apple needs to change, that your software is valuable even without their store.

I guess it’s disheartening to see instead just another set of entitled complaints and dubious concern over end users, most of whom have no idea your $10 app exists and never thought about it when buying their $1000 phone.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#423

Post by ric2b » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #205

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can use Google Chrome, and still use a non-Google search engine. I can use a Kindle, and still read DRM-Free epubs. Yes, all the major tech companies are engaged in rent seeking. But Apple is the only one that says users must either must pay rent or throw away their hardware. The App Store and its policies are not the problem. The App Store is Apple's store, just like Amazon.com is Amazon's store. But the App Store…

I don’t agree with that explanation of the gaming console exception. Modern consoles are actually quite similar to smartphones in the breadth of their functionality. To be consistent I think you’d need to include consoles, most smart TVs and media streamers, and even tech-heavy cars.

Games for consoles are sold in many different stores, I don't know why that's even being brought up.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#424

Post by botolo » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:00 AM UTC

I don't understand why some people think they have a right to be distributed for free within the App Store. This store is something Apple created and I think it's fair that they decide who can join and how. If you are a developer and you don't like this, then develop your app for Android.

This is something similar to Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo asking for $$ from developers if they want to sell their games for these platforms.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#425

Post by Wowfunhappy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:00 AM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #416

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Apple would have a lot less power if developers could threaten (even theoretically) to go around the App Store. Even now, major apps do have power. Unlike Hey, Netflix and Amazon are at least still in the App Store, and Amazon is even allowed to sell video rentals through their app without going through Apple's payment system: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/1/21203294/amazon-prime-vide... Edit: My posts pro…

Netflix and Amazon Prime Video as digital video content providers are specifically exempted from the IAP rules according to section 3.1.3(a) of the App Store review guidelines.

Sure, that's the justification, but Apple wrote those rules. It's completely arbitrary in practice.

I thought John Gruber laid this out pretty well: https://daringfireball.net/2020/06/hey_app_store_rejection_f...

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#426

Post by twicetwice » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

ratww wrote: post #397

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think game consoles kind of deserve a pass [1], but okay, I can see where you're coming from with that. Why Steam? No one ever has to use Steam--you can install whatever you want on your PC. Steam isn't even installed by default in 99% of cases. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579943

GP asked " why software makers should share their revenue with Apple " and said "nothing else" is like that. I was just pointing examples of things that were exactly like that. As for the why: I'm thinking from the point of view of a developer. For me it's all the same. Paying 30% to Apple is the same as paying 30% to Steam or x% to console makers. In practice it doesn't matter if the appliance the user runs my softw…

Well, I don't think paying 30% to Apple is the same as paying 30% to Steam. The former is mandatory, the latter is not. If you don't want to be on Steam, you can put your game in the Windows store/etc, or sell directly from your website. If you don't want to be on Apple's app store, well, too bad, it's the only way to reach 50+% of your potential customers (in the US).

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#427

Post by vore » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:02 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #390

dan-robertson wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be ethical to charge a fee to distribute software. You can imagine a world where each upload to the App Store would cast say $100. But the issue people complain about is that they are forced to use Apple as a middleman for all their payments and that Apple charges exorbitant fees for this

So don't be on the App Store. Problem solved. Make it a web site. Make it an Android exclusive. Do any of the dozen other things you need to do to be a success. You don't have to be on the App Store to survive. Hundreds of thousands of developers and their programs aren't.

Making it a website is inconvenient for many reasons compared to an app. Making it Android exclusive sucks for people who have iPhones, and it's a tall order to ask anyone to switch away from an iPhone they have already purchased. The problem is categorically not solved here.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#428

Post by Shivetya » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:03 AM UTC

The Tesla app comparison is just dumb, facetious even.

I had a similar app on my Volt but in the case of Tesla the app just works if you have the car whereas GM kept threatening to force you to buy into an Onstar subscription to continue using some features of the app; that would be something I could see Apple taking from.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#429

Post by screwycaboose » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:03 AM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #418

screwycaboose wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not a monopoly. Apple is roughly half of the marketshare in the US, and dramatically lower than that worldwide. They're also not saying that Hey can't be in their store, or even needs to pay them anything. Hey could offer a free tier and wouldn't owe Apple a dime. Basecamp already does this so they know it very well.

s/monopoly/anti-competitive

Is it anti-competitive? Apple literally told them how they could reapply the app in a way where they would owe Apple $0.

Which again, Basecamp already does. They know this is how it is and how to work around it, but they're pitching a fit because they don't want to do it.

I'm a bit ornery about this because Basecamp is using the plight of other developers now only because it suits their bottom line. Where have they been for the past decade? They've been raking in money off the App store for years.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#430

Post by twicetwice » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 1:04 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #386

acituan wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it unethical to charge a fee to developers who want to distribute their software through an app store that Apple owns? Developer don't necessarily want to distribute their software through that app store, they are forced to do that if they want to sell their software to people who happen to use that operating system. Operating system and app store are distinct products, but app store exclusively gatekeeps th…

So you increase the price of your app by 30 to make up for Apple's cut%. It's called business. It happens all the time in every single industry. If a business' property taxes go up, that cost is passed on to its customers. Why do people think that because something is on a phone that it should be any different?

That's also not allowed. I think Hey would be fine charging $142 a year for a subscription in their app, with a little note below saying "you can get this for $99 on our website, the difference is Apple's cut." In fact, if I understand it correctly, the price in-app has to be the same as the price anywhere else. They're literally not allowed to do what you're suggesting and pass the cost of Apple's fee on to consumers.