Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#151

Post by learc83 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:42 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #133

jimbob45 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the hand-waviness behind this argument. Yes, much of college is not worth it anymore and can be attained online. Still, these HN threads always come to the same conclusion that there remain elements of the college experience that can only be found on campus. Not attacking you personally btw. You seem to see the nuance required of the conversation.

> Still, these HN threads always come to the same conclusion that there remain elements of the college experience that can only be found on campus. In my view the college experience (societies, living away from home, mixing with people from outside your local area) is far more useful than the actual teaching. "There's a time and a place for everything - and it's called college". However with covid, all that is remove…

>However with covid, all that is removed,

It's very unlikely that this lasts more than another semester or so though. If you're looking to enroll in the fall or the next year, it shouldn't be a big concern.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#152

Post by sct202 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:44 PM UTC

memexy wrote: post #95

jbay808 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some? I think the assumption implicit in this thread of the conversation is that scoring well on the SATs is a way for brilliant poor kids to compete with rich well-connected kids.

Yes. I understand this is the assumption but why is this the assumption? I can imagine poor kids doing just as well if not better without artificial barriers to entry like the SAT and GRE. For some reason everyone is assuming these tests are "good" and "meritocratic" but I don't see it. Everyone seems to assume there need to be tests and no one is wondering what happens when there are no tests. I suspect no one is wo…

Poor kids aren't going to have the resources to compete as equitably on extracurriculars. A kid in a wealthy school might be able to host a fundraiser for charity and raise thousands of dollars easily, while a kid at a poor school would be able to raise only a fraction of that. That poor student is also going to have more trouble showing excellence in art/sports/intellectual hobbies if their parents aren't able to pay or take time off to send them off to competitions. The schools might be adjusting for the difficulty, but they'll be doing it in a very non-transparent way.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#153

Post by commandlinefan » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:44 PM UTC

dwaltrip wrote: post #100

cyberdrunk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a system based on merit, they would get more placements.

Merit is not a perfectly objective concept. Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important.

> Merit is not a perfectly objective concept

Well, it used to be, but it isn't any more now that they're rejecting standardized tests.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#154

Post by psychometry » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Wow, you don't even try to hide your obvious bias. The best source of info is one side of the legal battle? What a joke.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#155

Post by eitally » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #71

young_unixer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I don't know about the SAT specifically, but in my country we also have standardized admission tests and, from my appreciation, it's good at measuring 2 things: 1. General Intelligence. 2. How well you prepared for the test. Sure, (2) may be an undesirable artifact but I think that intelligence is a good way --if not the best-- to s…

2 isn't an undesirable artifact. You want highly motivated hard working people applying to your university course. People have this idea of some genius slacker but you know what's better than a genius slacker? A genius who works hard. And frankly, most people aren't geniuses anyway.

You don't even need to raise the bar that much. A normal intelligence person who works hard is much better than a genius slacker. My experience is that a lot of people at the top of their high school classes get/stay their based on 1) general intelligence, 2) memorization skills, 3) socioeconomic advantages, 4) compliance. Of those factors, only #3 has a particular bearing on future success. At university, those who tend to be most successful as students tend to be those who are intrinsically motivated to work hard and study, and also those with socioeconomic advantages. After university, those with socioeconomic advantages tend to succeed regardless of their educational background, so there are fundamental reasons to investigate the systemic unfairness and discrimination in our society. Without trying to sound snarky, this is as linked to movements like BLM as it is to Harvard's discrimination against Asian applicants.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#156

Post by hanifc » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:49 PM UTC

zebraflask wrote: post #148

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

I think you might have that backward. Test scores are somewhat influenced by the income level of the student's parents: wealthier families can afford to give their kids resources like study time, books, tutors, a home environment that values academic success, etc., that result in higher scores. A holistic process mitigates that disparity. I highly doubt the intent of this change is to "favor rich kids" or any of the…

> I highly doubt the intent...

I don't think the user was making the point that it was an intentional decision, but rather an unintentional consequence.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#157

Post by jariel » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:50 PM UTC

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

Neither GPAs nor SATs are 'useless' they just need to be contextualized.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#158

Post by HelloFellowDevs » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #119

filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I think we should just roll some kind of standardized test into your Junior year. Instead of it being this external expensive thing, everyone who wants to go to college can just take a half year preparation course in your Junior year and take the test at the end. We don't need this to be external. We already do a lot of standardized tests to measure student performance. This fixes the GPA problem between schools and…

The issue with standardized testing that's just rolled into coursework is that it'll further incentivize teachers to teach to the test. In my opinion it could also disadvantage schools which don't have education in the highest of mind. Basically running as a daycare center in some sections.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#159

Post by throwadmisons1 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:52 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #89

code4tee wrote: post #18

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I've heard that claim a lot, but never accompanied by evidence. Nobody I knew prepped for the SAT, and many got into top schools. Unless you count paying attention in math class, and reading adult level books "prepping".

I wasn't sure where to look for hard evidence for the claim, and I would love to see data showing the average SAT scores over time on a per-school basis. But this at least shows how admission rates have been consistently decreasing over (recent) time: https://www.ivywise.com/ivywise-knowledgebase/admission-stat...

I think it's reasonable to assume that the increased competitiveness in admissions leads to increasingly competitive attempts to game the admissions process.

Whether or not the original claim is true, I think it's certainly true that an increasing amount of cost and effort has gone into SAT prep. Certainly, that was my experience (if we're comparing anecdotes). Everyone I knew in the top percentile of my HS prepped for the SAT, and that was in the early 2000s. Based on one of your other comments, it seems that your personal experience was in the 70s -- how reflective do you think that is of the admissions process today?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#160

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 1:53 PM UTC

filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

The scaling limit is that they would dilute their brand if they started letting in a lot more people. Exclusivity is one of their main value propositions.