Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 568 posts

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#91

Post by hejja »

polynomial wrote: post #54
shreygineer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

This is the most puzzling aspect. Not sure how anyone could claim with a straight face Harvard unfairly discriminates against Asian applicants. There's definitely something else going on here.

Statistically, Asians have higher than average SAT, ACT scores, this is not contested.

In 1996 California passed prop 209 which banned affirmative action on the state level. All top UC schools have become majority asian despite California being less than 20% asian.

Now considering Harvard, there was a federal case brought against it since asians scoring higher marks than peers were being rejected.

Harvard's defense was that they were scoring lower, on average on "personality" scores -- a qualitative measure on admissions.

By contrast, african americans were scoring highest on these personality scores.

Ultimately, the case was won by Harvard since the intent was not determined to be pernicious.

It's no question Harvard artificially diversifies its student body, but affirmative action does come at a cost.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#92

Post by s1artibartfast »

young_unixer wrote: post #22
code4tee wrote: post #18

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I don't know about the SAT specifically, but in my country we also have standardized admission tests and, from my appreciation, it's good at measuring 2 things: 1. General Intelligence. 2. How well you prepared for the test. Sure, (2) may be an undesirable artifact but I think that intelligence is a good way --if not the best-- to s…

In my experience, hard work can make up for quite a lot.

I'm not sure which of the above is a better predictor of success in college or after.

It begs the question of if colleges should be selecting for general Intelligence over hard works.

On the other hand, removal of the SAT will probably put an even greater emphasis on school grades, which certainly correlates better with effort than general intelligence.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#93

Post by hejja »

shreygineer wrote: post #56
wutbrodo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make sense to assume that the HS student population is uniformly qualified to meet Harvard's admissions bar (absent explicit racial discrimination). There's a reason nobody really accuses the NBA of racial discrimination in drafting players.

It's not really fair to compare the NBA to Harvard. The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money. Harvard is a non-profit institute that seeks to create a diverse & successful that leave a mark on the world, which therefore upholds the eliteness of Harvard.

harvard has the right to implement its own standards, to be sure.

but who is implementing this, exactly, and on what agenda?

it's "harvard" the institution, the non-profit business.

instead of having a clear motive: making money, we have to guess what "diverse and successful" means.

does a powerful institution in our society owe us an explanation for this? maybe not.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#94

Post by mlyle »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #92
young_unixer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I don't know about the SAT specifically, but in my country we also have standardized admission tests and, from my appreciation, it's good at measuring 2 things: 1. General Intelligence. 2. How well you prepared for the test. Sure, (2) may be an undesirable artifact but I think that intelligence is a good way --if not the best-- to s…

In my experience, hard work can make up for quite a lot. I'm not sure which of the above is a better predictor of success in college or after. It begs the question of if colleges should be selecting for general Intelligence over hard works. On the other hand, removal of the SAT will probably put an even greater emphasis on school grades, which certainly correlates better with effort than general intelligence.

> It begs the question of if colleges should be selecting for general Intelligence over hard works.

Colleges should be building a model to determine who will derive the highest value from their education. Good inputs to this model include test scores measuring general scholastic abilities, actual performance during high school, notable achievements outside school, and the general background in which they made these accomplishments.

AKA, a lot like they're doing now. I don't think the testing portion of it should be eliminated.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#95

Post by memexy »

jbay808 wrote: post #75
memexy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many brilliant poor kids do they choose now?

Some? I think the assumption implicit in this thread of the conversation is that scoring well on the SATs is a way for brilliant poor kids to compete with rich well-connected kids.

Yes. I understand this is the assumption but why is this the assumption? I can imagine poor kids doing just as well if not better without artificial barriers to entry like the SAT and GRE. For some reason everyone is assuming these tests are "good" and "meritocratic" but I don't see it. Everyone seems to assume there need to be tests and no one is wondering what happens when there are no tests.

I suspect no one is wondering because without tests people have to face some harsh truths about economic and social class structures that most people in the US like to pretend do not exist. If these tests were about meritocracy then they would be enforced without exceptions and rich kids wouldn't be able to buy their way into their favorite schools like they do now after their parents make a generous donation. The existence of the test does not matter if you're rich enough so the argument about meritocracy rings hollow.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#96

Post by hejja »

RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #51
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Lets ignore your claim at possible discrimination, and ask what the ability to game a high score on an ACT/SAT has anything to do with how successful or contributing to society someone will become? In the internet age that we live in today, with access to all sorts of methods of memorization, I would argue scores on a standardized test are largely irrelevant, beyond testing for if someone can pass a test or not. The…

the best performers at school often become career academics -- a few research discoveries aside, you could say this is a pretty low-leverage position.

In other words, as you said, doing well in school means little outside of school.

So if you really wanted to come full circle on it, you could say it's actually good that people who aren't able to game a system, end up staying outside of that system.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#97

Post by exo-pla-net »

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Agreed. Factors such as having high literacy and the cognitive capacity to detect sarcasm should be ignored in favor of more pressing matters like making the admissions personnel feel good about themselves by accepting a Pokemon collection of scions and sympathetic stage prop students of non-Asian shades. We'll all surely shed tears of joy when the first young adult in a vegetative state overcomes his considerable hardships and gets wheeled onto Harvard's campus. Maybe a fellow student, perhaps Justin Beiber's nephew, will lift up his vegetative hand and give him a high five before they go off to their first ungraded class taught by a professor who has been thoroughly vetted to have no uncomfortable opinions. The mission of advancing human knowledge and scientific understanding in our institutions of higher learning will at that point be wholly fulfilled.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#98

Post by MagnumOpus »

mtgp1000 wrote: post #45
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

>This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acc…

> Not wealthy donors

Harvard's admission rate is 30% for "legacies" which make up one in six of their students, and even higher for donors. These are the kids who get in while being thick as a brick. The injustice is not primarily the black kid with 1400 SAT getting in over the east Asian kid with 1580 -- the injustice is the hundreds of CEOs/senators' kids being assured admission even being dumber than a sack of hammers.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#99

Post by hejja »

beaner wrote: post #36
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I don't get it, aren't most colleges non-profits? Why do they seek such high tuition fees if they're not profiting? Or are they, somehow?

Not to mention Harvard has a $40 billion endowment on top of that.

At the end of the day, it's a way to not pay taxes.

Stakeholders are still getting paid in different ways: high salaries and job security, "administrator" jobs that shouldn't exist.

In other words, it's socialism.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#100

Post by dwaltrip »

cyberdrunk wrote: post #80
shreygineer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

In a system based on merit, they would get more placements.

Merit is not a perfectly objective concept. Someone has to come up with criteria based on whatever goals and values they think are important.
Post reply on HN