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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#51

Post by RedBeetDeadpool »

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Lets ignore your claim at possible discrimination, and ask what the ability to game a high score on an ACT/SAT has anything to do with how successful or contributing to society someone will become?

In the internet age that we live in today, with access to all sorts of methods of memorization, I would argue scores on a standardized test are largely irrelevant, beyond testing for if someone can pass a test or not. The highest score goes not to the person who thinks critically but to the one who gamed the system the most. If you can teach someone to win at candy-crush, you can get them to ace the SAT's.

Some of the most important people in society have not typically done well in structured schooling, and this is in part because a lot of education is bs in the first place.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#52

Post by jbay808 »

vkou wrote: post #39
xvedejas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote Scott Aaronson: Admissions to the top US universities—and hence, most chances for social advancement in the US—will henceforth be based entirely on shifting and nebulous criteria that rich, well-connected kids and their parents spend most of their lives figuring out, rather than merely mostly based on such criteria. The last side door for smart noncomformist kids is now being slammed shut.

And to quote someone on HN: Colleges, as insitutions, care about progressive, equality of opportunity values. Those nebulous criteria will coalesce to produce roughly the same outcomes that they currently do.

Will they?

They might adjust their admission picks until e.g. aggregate ethnic/racial admission stats look the same as before, but at the same time picking more of the rich, well-connected black/other minority kids and fewer of the poor but hardworking ones.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#53

Post by memexy »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #48
memexy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't high school class grades enough? If we want predictive measures then why not make the preparation for college the actual measure instead of tacking it on at the end as another exam. I can see it being useful for people who don't go through the traditional path and need to prove that they have the equivalent knowledge of a typical American high schooler but otherwise I really think there is no value in thes…

Because there's nothing even remotely standardized about high school education. A kid growing up in Seattle learns about evolution, while a kid growing up in small-town Oklahoma learns that Jesus rode a dinosaur to work. Cultural differences aside, a student who graduated #1 in a class of 50 probably enjoyed a fraction of the learning opportunities available to a child who graduated #12 of 500 at a larger school. The…

I'm not arguing for their elimination. I'm sharing anecdotal evidence that they weren't useful for me and probably people like me who got an adequate education and had access to a local community college and a library.

Re: uneven distribution of education. This is the fundamental problem and standardized tests don't actually address the root cause. We really shouldn't be confused about what skills and concepts people need to learn up until high school and the rigor with which they need to learn them. Addressing this confusion is a hard problem so post high school standardized tests end up being the band aid. We can keep the tests and work to address the underlying root causes for uneven educational outcomes. Test preparation industry is essentially a form of tax on something that we should have democratized by now.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#54

Post by polynomial »

shreygineer wrote: post #47
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

This is the most puzzling aspect. Not sure how anyone could claim with a straight face Harvard unfairly discriminates against Asian applicants.

There's definitely something else going on here.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#55

Post by throwawaysea »

This recent trend of eliminating the SAT/ACT reads to me like: “Let’s eliminate these measures that allow high performing students to objectively differentiate themselves, in favor of a more opaque admissions process where we can implement discriminatory policies without scrutiny.”

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#56

Post by shreygineer »

wutbrodo wrote: post #50
shreygineer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

It doesn't make sense to assume that the HS student population is uniformly qualified to meet Harvard's admissions bar (absent explicit racial discrimination). There's a reason nobody really accuses the NBA of racial discrimination in drafting players.

It's not really fair to compare the NBA to Harvard. The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money.

Harvard is a non-profit institute that seeks to create a diverse & successful that leave a mark on the world, which therefore upholds the eliteness of Harvard.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#57

Post by memexy »

jbay808 wrote: post #52
vkou wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to quote someone on HN: Colleges, as insitutions, care about progressive, equality of opportunity values. Those nebulous criteria will coalesce to produce roughly the same outcomes that they currently do.

Will they? They might adjust their admission picks until e.g. aggregate ethnic/racial admission stats look the same as before, but at the same time picking more of the rich, well-connected black/other minority kids and fewer of the poor but hardworking ones.

How many brilliant poor kids do they choose now?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#58

Post by AlchemistCamp »

gautamcgoel wrote: post #24
SamReidHughes wrote: post #13

Caltech is doing this -- actually, they're going test blind -- for two years. I think that's pretty notable, since I trust them to be interested in only admitting students that can pass their physics classes.

I'm a PhD student at Caltech. There's also a push to eliminate the GRE as a requirement for graduate admissions, in much the same way as some people want to eliminate the SAT as a requirement for undergraduate admissions. In my opinion both proposals are well-intentioned but ultimately bad ideas.

Some people self study and pass GRE subject tests without having done the relevant undergraduate degree. Especially in fields such as mathematics and physics where testing results are easily quantified, this is a gradually growing long-term threat to the credentialing power of universities.

If an independent company comes along that can reliably get students to equivalent GRE subject test scores in a hard science most quickly than the university itself does, the result could be many of the best students stop applying. Some would just take the nontraditional route, save a fortune, ace their GREs and apply as a graduate student. Others would take their tests as evidence of their skills and and go directly into industry.

Making this move now, before such a challenger exists seems like a "good" idea from the selfish perspective of universities.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#59

Post by ahupp »

memexy wrote: post #44
Fezzik wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am hard pressed to think of better methods to fairly and uniformly measure if person A is more qualified for college than person B. There has to be something to differentiate, as objectively as possible, between candidates. And, while not perfect, standardized tests fit the bill. I, for one, find standardized tests far more stomach-able as barriers to entry to a university than the exclusive whims of administrators…

Why aren't high school class grades enough? If we want predictive measures then why not make the preparation for college the actual measure instead of tacking it on at the end as another exam. I can see it being useful for people who don't go through the traditional path and need to prove that they have the equivalent knowledge of a typical American high schooler but otherwise I really think there is no value in thes…

There are 24,000 high schools in the US (not even considering international students) with wildly varying grading standards. You have one applicant from Podunk City High School, valedictorian with a 4.0. Is that ... good? How does it compare to the thousands of other kids with 4.0s you have applying?

I'm completely sympathetic to the idea that grades should be a better predictor of performance than one day of testing, but in practice the grades have a lot of flaws too.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#60

Post by SamReidHughes »

memexy wrote: post #53
CamperBob2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there's nothing even remotely standardized about high school education. A kid growing up in Seattle learns about evolution, while a kid growing up in small-town Oklahoma learns that Jesus rode a dinosaur to work. Cultural differences aside, a student who graduated #1 in a class of 50 probably enjoyed a fraction of the learning opportunities available to a child who graduated #12 of 500 at a larger school. The…

I'm not arguing for their elimination. I'm sharing anecdotal evidence that they weren't useful for me and probably people like me who got an adequate education and had access to a local community college and a library. Re: uneven distribution of education. This is the fundamental problem and standardized tests don't actually address the root cause. We really shouldn't be confused about what skills and concepts people…

You can do test prep for free online now.
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