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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#81

Post by WalterBright »

memexy wrote: post #33
gautamcgoel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a PhD student at Caltech. There's also a push to eliminate the GRE as a requirement for graduate admissions, in much the same way as some people want to eliminate the SAT as a requirement for undergraduate admissions. In my opinion both proposals are well-intentioned but ultimately bad ideas.

Why are they bad ideas? I took the SAT and GRE for undergraduate and graduate schools respectively and neither was worthwhile preparation for anything I studied. If we want to put up barriers to entry then I think we can find better and more predictive ways than measuring general pattern matching skills with the SAT and GRE.

The SAT is an objective measurement. By dispensing with it, all the other measures are subjective. This means that it leaves the administration free to admit whoever they please, based on any agenda.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#82

Post by cambalache »

shreygineer wrote: post #47
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

You dont understand until your kids get rejected despite having straight A, high SAT scores and strong background, just because many other people whose ancestors come from a similar region on earth were as highly qualified too. So your kid is out not because of her fault but because of her race. I suppose many people are OK because deep down they think they will be in the accepted portion but still.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#83

Post by s1artibartfast »

memexy wrote: post #57
jbay808 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will they? They might adjust their admission picks until e.g. aggregate ethnic/racial admission stats look the same as before, but at the same time picking more of the rich, well-connected black/other minority kids and fewer of the poor but hardworking ones.

How many brilliant poor kids do they choose now?

>Fifty-five percent of Harvard College students receive need-based scholarship aid, and the average grant this year is more than $53,000.

https://www.harvard.edu/about-harvard/harvard-glance#:~:text....

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#84

Post by WalterBright »

jbay808 wrote: post #75
memexy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many brilliant poor kids do they choose now?

Some? I think the assumption implicit in this thread of the conversation is that scoring well on the SATs is a way for brilliant poor kids to compete with rich well-connected kids.

When I attended Caltech, I didn't notice any bias towards rich kids. The ones whose families I knew were all economically ordinary. None of the kids had a Porsche or Ferrari or BMW or anything expensive. Hal Finney had an ancient VW bug, and I had my 67 Mustang. Another friend bought a Chevette upon graduation with his own money.

I was on financial aid myself.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#85

Post by hombre_fatal »

whymauri wrote: post #9
deathgrips wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard is selective and exclusionary but it doesn't need to select the objectively best people, it just has to select people that are "good enough". Most of the value of an undergrad degree at Harvard comes from networking rather than the education itself. It's a club.

(Unrelated, but I love, love, love your username.)

It's just a music group.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#86

Post by cambalache »

shreygineer wrote: post #56
wutbrodo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make sense to assume that the HS student population is uniformly qualified to meet Harvard's admissions bar (absent explicit racial discrimination). There's a reason nobody really accuses the NBA of racial discrimination in drafting players.

It's not really fair to compare the NBA to Harvard. The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money. Harvard is a non-profit institute that seeks to create a diverse & successful that leave a mark on the world, which therefore upholds the eliteness of Harvard.

> The NBA is a for-profit institution in the entertainment business that is interested in drafting the most talented players to get the most views and therefore, the most most money.

So exactly like Hollywood who has rightly or wrongly be heavily campaigned against because of discrimination, btw it is ironic but if you check the numbers white women are over represented same as black people, the 2 leading-voices among the minorities, its is Asian- Americans, Hispanic-Americans and Native Americans who are completely sidelined in that industry.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#87

Post by tester34 »

RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #51
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Lets ignore your claim at possible discrimination, and ask what the ability to game a high score on an ACT/SAT has anything to do with how successful or contributing to society someone will become? In the internet age that we live in today, with access to all sorts of methods of memorization, I would argue scores on a standardized test are largely irrelevant, beyond testing for if someone can pass a test or not. The…

You're right, but I tend to believe every other "metrics" is worse (more unfair) than this.

>If you can teach someone to win at candy-crush, you can get them to ace the SAT's.

The difference is amount of effort needed.

You need to put waaaaaay more effort into advanced math/bio/chem.

Also if we keep accepting less educated people, then not only they may struggle to keep up, but also it may decrease overall level

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#89

Post by WalterBright »

code4tee wrote: post #18

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT.

I've heard that claim a lot, but never accompanied by evidence.

Nobody I knew prepped for the SAT, and many got into top schools. Unless you count paying attention in math class, and reading adult level books "prepping".

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#90

Post by memexy »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #83
memexy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many brilliant poor kids do they choose now?

>Fifty-five percent of Harvard College students receive need-based scholarship aid, and the average grant this year is more than $53,000. https://www.harvard.edu/about-harvard/harvard-glance#:~:text... .

This reminds me of an article about tuition cost going up by just the right amount to make sure 55% of people qualify for financial aid. I don't remember where I read this but I remember the argument making sense. What numbers do we get when we look at what percentage of people qualify for financial aid at Harvard and how has this number changed? I wonder if they keep track of and make this data available?
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