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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#61

Post by memexy »

ahupp wrote: post #59
memexy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't high school class grades enough? If we want predictive measures then why not make the preparation for college the actual measure instead of tacking it on at the end as another exam. I can see it being useful for people who don't go through the traditional path and need to prove that they have the equivalent knowledge of a typical American high schooler but otherwise I really think there is no value in thes…

There are 24,000 high schools in the US (not even considering international students) with wildly varying grading standards. You have one applicant from Podunk City High School, valedictorian with a 4.0. Is that ... good? How does it compare to the thousands of other kids with 4.0s you have applying? I'm completely sympathetic to the idea that grades should be a better predictor of performance than one day of testing…

I don't know if it's good or bad. I don't think grades mean much either other than a feedback/signal for the student. Using them as measuring sticks for admission into exclusive clubs seems pretty broken. We should be lowering the barriers to education and the exclusive clubs that elite educational institutions demarcate.

I want more people that study calculus and higher level mathematics because it is a standard part of their education and not because it is a requirement on some test. I don't care what grade they get on their exams because if I end up working with them I'm not gonna care about the grade but the fact that they learned how to think rigorously (or at least were given the opportunity to do so without having to waste effort and energy on playing status games).

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#62

Post by kaonwarb »

beaner wrote: post #36
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I don't get it, aren't most colleges non-profits? Why do they seek such high tuition fees if they're not profiting? Or are they, somehow?

"Nonprofit" is a tax designation in the U.S. There is nothing in that designation which prevents those running the nonprofit from personally profiting greatly from their positions. There are limitations in the methods to gain such personal profit, but they far from forestall it. Wikipedia has a good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization_laws_i....

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#63

Post by memexy »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #60
memexy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing for their elimination. I'm sharing anecdotal evidence that they weren't useful for me and probably people like me who got an adequate education and had access to a local community college and a library. Re: uneven distribution of education. This is the fundamental problem and standardized tests don't actually address the root cause. We really shouldn't be confused about what skills and concepts people…

You can do test prep for free online now.

That's very useful. Do you have any favorite links/resources?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#64

Post by totalZero »

RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #51
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Lets ignore your claim at possible discrimination, and ask what the ability to game a high score on an ACT/SAT has anything to do with how successful or contributing to society someone will become? In the internet age that we live in today, with access to all sorts of methods of memorization, I would argue scores on a standardized test are largely irrelevant, beyond testing for if someone can pass a test or not. The…

I would argue that "structured schooling" refers more to a university than to the SAT.

Personally I see more merit in performing well on an exam with a clear statistical context, than in filling out some bullshit lab notebook or whatever it is that people at Harvard do to earn their A- (mean grade) or A (mode).

One problem with your argument is that, without the SAT, admissions counselors will have to depend MORE on structured schooling, because they have to lean more heavily on grades, school activities, and teacher recommendations.

Your initial question, by the way, is flawed. School is not success, and education by itself is not a contribution to society. So why you use those things to judge a college entrance exam is unclear to me.

An entrance exam is a measure of intellectual horsepower. Tons of rich people throw money at SAT courses and still fare poorly, while tons of smart kids whose families wouldn't be able to afford college without financial aid fare well.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#65

Post by beaner »

kaonwarb wrote: post #62
beaner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it, aren't most colleges non-profits? Why do they seek such high tuition fees if they're not profiting? Or are they, somehow?

"Nonprofit" is a tax designation in the U.S. There is nothing in that designation which prevents those running the nonprofit from personally profiting greatly from their positions. There are limitations in the methods to gain such personal profit, but they far from forestall it. Wikipedia has a good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization_laws_i... .

I haven't read the link but I assume it means something like: The institutions do not have ownable shares that can be traded, and so ownership of the institution itself is not a profit-seeking endeavor (is it even "owned" at all?), but salaries are uncapped and so being employed by it can be?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#66

Post by [deleted] »

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#68

Post by [deleted] »

polynomial wrote: post #54
shreygineer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Asian American myself, I don't understand this notion of discrimination against Asian Americans by Ivy League schools. Per Harvards Class of 2023 Admissions data [1], Asian Americans makeup 25.3% of the admitted class. They're the largest minority group admitted. [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

This is the most puzzling aspect. Not sure how anyone could claim with a straight face Harvard unfairly discriminates against Asian applicants. There's definitely something else going on here.

[deleted]

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#69

Post by [deleted] »

RedBeetDeadpool wrote: post #51
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

Lets ignore your claim at possible discrimination, and ask what the ability to game a high score on an ACT/SAT has anything to do with how successful or contributing to society someone will become? In the internet age that we live in today, with access to all sorts of methods of memorization, I would argue scores on a standardized test are largely irrelevant, beyond testing for if someone can pass a test or not. The…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#70

Post by jfim »

ahupp wrote: post #59
memexy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't high school class grades enough? If we want predictive measures then why not make the preparation for college the actual measure instead of tacking it on at the end as another exam. I can see it being useful for people who don't go through the traditional path and need to prove that they have the equivalent knowledge of a typical American high schooler but otherwise I really think there is no value in thes…

There are 24,000 high schools in the US (not even considering international students) with wildly varying grading standards. You have one applicant from Podunk City High School, valedictorian with a 4.0. Is that ... good? How does it compare to the thousands of other kids with 4.0s you have applying? I'm completely sympathetic to the idea that grades should be a better predictor of performance than one day of testing…

> There are 24,000 high schools in the US (not even considering international students) with wildly varying grading standards. You have one applicant from Podunk City High School, valedictorian with a 4.0. Is that ... good? How does it compare to the thousands of other kids with 4.0s you have applying?

Some other places in the world admit based on the Z-score for each subject, with the average and standard deviation being specific to each school. While the university might not know how one would compare to other students based on an equivalent test, they'd at least know that a particular student is in the top decile for their school in a given subject.

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