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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

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711–720 of 841 posts

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair. But I also believe that people should run their businesses how they see fit, and that freedom of association is a human right. I bet most businesses would make their stores accessible (within reason) since you need room in isles for carts, etc.

Freedom of association is a human right. However, for example, operating a corporation is not.

Isn't operating a corporation an extension of the right to liberty?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#712
post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, do you want specific details? In the mid 80s, My parents took me to a diner, specifically BOB AND EDITH's on columbia pike, in Arlington VA. During the 80s, Asian Americans were very rare in the Washington DC area, and moreover, there was a trade war going on between the US and Japan. It was fashionable at the time for short fiction to feature dystopian US futures where the active currency was the Yen. We arriv…

You've listed an impressive set of adversities associated with being Asian American, some of which I can also relate to as an Asian American, but then the motivation behind your posts becomes clear with: > Look, the primary issue of racism that Asian Americans have to deal with is not the same as the racism that African Americans have to deal with and then making the following wholly unsubstantiated statement: > whic…

I'm saying we have to work twice as hard as white people, not African Americans.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that I don't trust government to make "black lives matter". There might be a chance that government can self intervene and stem the bloody police abuse against African Americans (I'm also not terribly optimistic about this since cops are abusive to plenty of non African American citizens, too, e.g. Kelly Thomas, albeit at much lower relative rates). In general, if we want black lives to matter, we have to do the hard work in communities and among individuals, and, separately IMO, asymptotically with racial admixing to make the whole thing pointless, not paper it over with legislative interventionism, though at least in the realms where government tries to regulates itself I'm not opposed to giving it the old college try, as they say.

Look what I'm saying is scary right? I'm saying there is no easy "just make racism illegal" solution to racism. Well so let's get to work on it.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#713
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

So not to go all Godwin, but take an extreme example... Do you think a company in 1930s Germany should have ethically refused to provide software that was used in concentration camps? [In fact, there was a bit of "IT" then, used for such, but it was provided by IBM. But to make the analogy closer, let's imagine a hypothetically Germany company]. ("Companies" don't do anything by themselves, so I guess the question is…

For me, I think it’s completely inappropriate to equate ICE with 30s nazi germany state.

I think its appropriate to refuse to work with nazi germany, apartheid south africa, khmer rouge, etc. But I don’t think ICE is anywhere near those regimes.

If GitHub staff equate them, then I question the logic of any organization that makes those comparisons. Mainly because it they aren’t operating rationally then perhaps next is DEA, NRA, non-GPL contributors, etc.

I don’t see any good where companies try to work or not work with specific organizations based on very niche boycott campaigns.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#714
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:( Then I have at least two question: 1) how much proof should I collect that someone is a nazi before I punch them? 2) how much should I believe other's people claim that someone is a nazi? Or is it a matter of court? is it a crime to be a nazi or is it simply a punchable offense? Is there an official agency that labels nazis? Or maybe it is a matter of activism, I can punch them while they are declaring nazi ideolo…

I think it's stupid as hell to have to convince anyone that nazis are worth punching, but whatever, I'll give you one response and leave it. 1) IDK, start with anyone who says they're a nazi. There are tons of people who are openly fascist, white supremacists. No need to worry about grey lines, plenty of punching to go around. If you really want to push the boundaries, go for people who are openly hateful towards min…

How old are you?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I think you're being needlessly antagonistic. I'm trying to help the misunderstanding between Europeans and Americans on this issue (and leveling criticism against people using the term in a certain way in the American context —ICE is an American government agency, after all). Different cultures use words to mean different things. And I can tell you that, in the American context, concentration camp = Nazis kill…

And I'm trying to explain to you that it's not a "misunderstanding" - the US is hardly unique in using euphemisms and indirect language to downplay/distance itself from its actions. The "internment camps" Japanese Americans were held in were concentration camps, and frankly it's absurd to expect anybody else to pander to one's euphemisms for human rights abuses - the right thing to do is to consistently call it out n…

FWIW, I am not arguing for using the term “internment camp”. But the term “concentration camp” to describe whatever is happening at ICE detention centers doesn’t make sense. People are not being starved or worked to death, they are not being gassed, and they are not being put into ovens. And those things are what “concentration camp” means in America.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#716
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO what actually needs to be done is tax on automation that would directly fund universal income. That would actually help humanity.

That kills the whole purpose of automation. Automation is preferable because it is supposed to be cheaper while providing equal benefits as traditional production of goods and services. My personal choice here would be a tax for practices that are provably automatable but not yet automated. The result is the same, we are funding a UBI but now businesses are also incentivized for innovation to escape from the tax. I'm…

> My personal choice here would be a tax for practices that are provably automatable but not yet automated.

If a practice is provably automatable, then it's already automated. That's what proof looks like.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over most of the last few decades, most corporations' politics were limited to things like United Way drives, etc. Right or wrong, the situation today is very novel, and we may discover why companies were loath to get involved in this sort of thing in the past. Personally, I'm finding it a significant distraction in my organization. It does leave me wondering if I shouldn't leave for a more neutral one.

You're right, and it goes much deeper. These corporations effectively own enough of our data to trivially deanonymize and target people. An organization of people who believe they are morally justified in they cause are liable to abuse such information, regardless of which side they belong to. That's the most terrifying part to me as a dev. We don't even need neural networks to search petabytes of social media conten…

You're right that Internet-ish companies are a special risk. But even run-of-the-mill organizations seem to be drinking the Kool-Aid these days. I sat today in an all-hands anti-racism videoconference. It was bland enough, though it would at one time have made a good SNL skit. (It was a bunch of woke white women declaiming our failures.) Committees were proposed and also the hiring of (even) more D&I consultants and personnel. As usual, no actually useful action was proposed, but we have once again checked the box.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I think you're being needlessly antagonistic. I'm trying to help the misunderstanding between Europeans and Americans on this issue (and leveling criticism against people using the term in a certain way in the American context —ICE is an American government agency, after all). Different cultures use words to mean different things. And I can tell you that, in the American context, concentration camp = Nazis kill…

But does the phrase internment camp actually bring to mind abuses such as denying children hygiene supplies such as toothbrushes or basic necessities like blankets in an American reader? The separation of families? The disappearance of children? If internment camp does not convey that then I think using a technically correct term such as concentration camp to ensure that people pay attention to these abuses is not ju…

I’m not arguing for the use of the term “internment camp”. I am arguing against the use of the term “concentration camp”.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#719
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:( Then I have at least two question: 1) how much proof should I collect that someone is a nazi before I punch them? 2) how much should I believe other's people claim that someone is a nazi? Or is it a matter of court? is it a crime to be a nazi or is it simply a punchable offense? Is there an official agency that labels nazis? Or maybe it is a matter of activism, I can punch them while they are declaring nazi ideolo…

I think it's stupid as hell to have to convince anyone that nazis are worth punching, but whatever, I'll give you one response and leave it. 1) IDK, start with anyone who says they're a nazi. There are tons of people who are openly fascist, white supremacists. No need to worry about grey lines, plenty of punching to go around. If you really want to push the boundaries, go for people who are openly hateful towards min…

[deleted]

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - in free societies you should be able to refuse service on any grounds, including those things. Otherwise you're permitting the government to forcibly compel you to allocate your time and resources to ends they define. In free societies, governments should only be able to forcibly compel people not to do things (murder, threaten, steal, etc.) - see the concept of "negative rights."

In a your version of a free society, what happens when everyone refuses you EVERY single service because random-reason ? They sure as heck aren't murdering, stealing, nor threatening you. They're just refusing to sell you anything because of random-reason , forever. Those services include sales of any food, water, shelter. Taking it further, what if a majority of businesses gradually decide to be racist and refuse al…

In this fictional scenario every single community member has become a racist but the government legislative and enforcement bodies are immune from this trend?

Making something illegal may feel good, but if 100% of the population (by the terms of your scenario) are against it, legislation is hardly going to move the needle.

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