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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#901

Post by [deleted] »

tekknik wrote: post #884
mayniac wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't just scared of the idea of armed police, they're afraid of police departments who have a history of getting away with murder. John Brown Gun Club and Redneck Revolt don't have that history. There were also rumours of proud boys and other far-right groups attacking CHAZ. It's understandable that people would be more comfortable with vocally anti-fascist gun clubs defending them than the police, who often…

can you describe what you mean by “proud boys”? I have a bad feeling this word should actually be “patriots”

[deleted]

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#902

Post by andrewzah »

AnHonestComment wrote: post #686
dragonwriter wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Police are safer than cars, For whom and per...what? Encounter? Mile traveled with them? > The only violence I’ve seen from police that doesn’t seem like an anomaly is violence that protestors incited by starting a conflict with the police. That suggests to me that either your perception of provocation or of anomaly is skewed (or that “anomaly” is used in the software sense of “behavior out of line with spec” rathe…

Per arrest to one year of driving: you would have to be arrested ten times in a year for your risk from the police to match your risk driving a car that year. Per arrest for violent crime (where most of the deaths occur), blacks are safer than whites. I’ve been reviewing the footage from Seattle — and protestors started every instance of violence by first getting forceful with the cops. Show me any evidence that ther…

> I’ve been reviewing the footage from Seattle — and protestors started every instance of violence by first getting forceful with the cops.

That's funny, because the majority of the clips I've seen have unprovoked or inappropriate responses from the police. Seattle alone [0] has had numerous incidents. It's trivially easy to see this, to the point that one would have to ignore many incidents to say "every instance" was started by protestors.

I believe that you are not arguing in good faith.

[0]: https://github.com/2020PB/police-brutality/blob/master/repor...

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#903

Post by kyleblarson »

muricula wrote: post #219
JPKab wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they were so proud of what was built" Curious, since I can't trust news media to not sensationalize this: What has been built, according to your friend? Have they set up infrastructure of some sort for housing people? Kitchens, latrines, etc?

The city is maintaining a row of porta potties, and someone rented one privately a block or so away. Some businesses are opening their restrooms too. As of this evening I saw at least three soup kitchens, two well equipped aid stations, a community garden plot with zucchinis and other food, a row of freshly planted trees, planters of decorative plants which double as barricades, and lots of barricades. Half of that w…

Bit ironic that they are building a wall to protect their community.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#904

Post by andrewzah »

cma wrote: post #730
Izkata wrote: post #728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...it was nicknamed the Clinton News Network in 2016 because of how partisan it gets.

By Limbaugh?

By anyone. Any "news" network that's on TV is rubbish. It's not like there's a certification or anything.

Anyone who mocks Fox news and then turns around and watches cnn, msnbc, etc, is a fool.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#905

Post by skissane »

frabbit wrote: post #895
skissane wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question – is the problem with police, or is the problem with US police specifically? Do we have the same problem with police in other countries? Canadian police? UK police? Police in EU countries? If the US police have this problem and other (wealthy democratic) countries don't – or even if comparable countries have the problem too, just not quite as bad as the US has it – what makes US police different? Racism an…

As regards the Canadian police (especially, but not limited to the RCMP) they are no angels. Especially if you are indigenous/autochthonous. And that's because they are fulfilling the function for which they were created: taking land and living away from some people. A quick google on the history of the RCMP, their recent shoot-to-kill policies at indigenous roadblocks, the colonial/imperial origins will put Justin T…

I know there are a lot of problems with how police in Australia treat indigenous Australians (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people), so it is totally unsurprising to hear that Canadian police have similar issues.

On that topic, how do US law enforcement treat Native Americans? In the present debate there seems to be very little attention to that question.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#906

Post by jatone »

remarkEon wrote: post #866
jatone wrote: post #820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

depends on how those people are used. 'hiring more police' well that can be argued as exactly what the activists want. if you define police as individuals who help the community with their issues without violence. making sure homeless people get food/shelter, mental health issues are resolved non violently etc. I'd be all for hiring more of those 'police'. As for surveillance, depends on the kind. I'd be all for surv…

>'hiring more police' well that can be argued as exactly what the activists want. Have you actually gone out and talked to these people?

Yes, I've been protesting with them.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#907

Post by AnHonestComment »

andrewzah wrote: post #902
AnHonestComment wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per arrest to one year of driving: you would have to be arrested ten times in a year for your risk from the police to match your risk driving a car that year. Per arrest for violent crime (where most of the deaths occur), blacks are safer than whites. I’ve been reviewing the footage from Seattle — and protestors started every instance of violence by first getting forceful with the cops. Show me any evidence that ther…

> I’ve been reviewing the footage from Seattle — and protestors started every instance of violence by first getting forceful with the cops. That's funny, because the majority of the clips I've seen have unprovoked or inappropriate responses from the police. Seattle alone [0] has had numerous incidents. It's trivially easy to see this, to the point that one would have to ignore many incidents to say "every instance" w…

Can you elaborate on which of those clips you find that the police initiated or acted inappropriately?

The first one is what we should want to happen — a misplaced knee was moved by a colleague. There’s no context to decide if police inappropriately started an altercation. There’s no extended period of a knee on someone’s neck.

The second is police responding to someone on the ground fighting them and physically resisting arrest.

The third is pepper spraying a crowd that was refusing to move and let the police form a line, after someone lunged at the police.

The fourth is completely context free, and while unfortunate that a child was there, it doesn’t give us context to judge.

Your source also is using selective clips, that remove context to focus on emotionally triggering scenes.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#908

Post by jessaustin »

hedora wrote: post #865
jessaustin wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't quote that reptile. Of all the reasons to resign from the currently-reigning administration, he chose the fact that Trump had decided to stop killing Syrian children. Not a good look. If the war media is refocusing its attention on him, we can expect he'll be pimping more atrocities real soon. After all the public must be distracted from its current concerns, otherwise we might spend some money on someth…

I’m mot a huge fan of him, and am extremely anti-war. However, the US’s withdrawal from Syria is a continuing humanitarian disaster that has spread into neighboring countries.

We don't destroy nations by leaving them (which we haven't done in Syria's case; there are still USA troops fighting there [0]), we destroy them by occupying and slaughtering in the first place. Keep in mind that the "gas attacks" were staged false-flag this-is-how-all-our-wars-start bullshit, which overruled-from-top OPCW investigations made clear. [1] Calling oneself "extremely anti-war" while parroting military-industrial complex submarine interventionist propaganda is fairly ridiculous. Killing more children in Syria wouldn't have saved the lives of Syrian children.

[0] https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/07/max-blumenthal-on-baghdad...

[1] https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/28/opcw-insiders-ltamenah-ch...

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#909

Post by rovolo »

catacombs wrote: post #899
golf1052 wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the governor and the mayor said they won't let the Feds try that.

Wouldn't the feds just overrule them anyway?

Do you think that the feds would win politically from overriding local authorities to send in armed troops to evict thousands of people from a glorified festival? There was a ton of push-back on the feds clearing out sections of DC, and the feds have a lot more authority there.

Clearing out the area is fundamentally a political issue, so I think you need to focus less on who would clear out CHAZ and more on how they would justify their actions. The area is in a dense area and is easily accessible by transit so tons of people have gone there in person. Plus, the local establishment news has been visiting the area and taking pictures.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dubbed-a-lawless-s...

Whoever clears it would need to create "probable cause" as you mentioned initially. Our police chief has been trying to justify clearing the area by saying: 1) business are getting extorted (no evidence) 2) assaults and rapes have increased (the crime blotter doesn't support this) 3) there are armed guards doing ID checks at the barricades (people can just walk in to the area and tons of people have visited. There have been a few people with long guns hanging out, but my understanding is that they leave shortly because other people tell them it's not a good look). So far, none of those accusations have stuck:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-prote...

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#910

Post by ubercow13 »

tekknik wrote: post #883
ubercow13 wrote: post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t seem minor compared to other countries police forces. Why should being killed by the police be acceptable as long as the risk is lower than that from traffic?

Because we need laws and punishments to enforce those laws. What other countries have a population as diverse as the US and then let’s see some stats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

Seems the problem is approximately 90 times worse (!) than the UK for example. The UK is somewhat less diverse, but what has a diverse population got to do with it? That might explain some of the killing, but it doesn't justify it.

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