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California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

reuters.com

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Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#41

Post by champagneben »

thebean11 wrote: post #20
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.

Would you say this is true outside of the US as well? Does the moral hazard get introduced with lobbying, or do you find it to be problematic on its own?

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#42

Post by staycoolboy »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

That's insane. I didn't know that was happening. I lived in CA for 20 years. I think banning for-profit prisons is a good first step. Next stop: stuff like this! Thanks for the enlightenment.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#43

Post by dahfizz »

Shivetya wrote: post #30

This isn't about protecting prisoners or their rights, this is about protecting the jobs that the California Correctional Peace Officers Association controls and insuring no one else performs this task. Private prisons were forced into accepting CCPOA members but he union set forth in campaign after campaign to rid the state of private prisons. Back in May Newsom announced he was trying to reduce some of the in exces…

> The measure, which passed the California legislature last month, does not apply to privately owned prisons operated and staffed by the state corrections agency.

It does seeem suspicious...

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#44

Post by clairity »

Tomte wrote: post #17
sneak wrote: post #11

The concentration camps and child prisons the US is operating presently are mostly in Texas and the southwest, so this won't have much meaningful effect on the situation.

Isn't California southwest? I mean it borders on Mexico and the Pacific ocean. Or is "southwest" in American usage synonymous with Texas?

many of us consider southern califoria part of the southwest, but not so much the central and northern parts. similarly with texas, the southwestern parts, less so with the rest.

that's because that's what borders mexico, and we have a politico-cultural fascination with that border in particular.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#45

Post by corty »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #28
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

>illegally Presumably illegal. There wasn't a state law banning it, and Buck vs. Bell technically still stands allowing state run compulsory sterilization.

There would still be various human rights treaties banning stuff like that.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#46

Post by Gustomaximus »

ogre_codes wrote: post #32
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power. Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for longer mandatory prison terms regardl…

It doesnt have to be. Why don't they do something like pay private prisons the bare minimum per diem but then offer a trailing commission for every year an ex-con is out of jail past a certain date.

Do the statistics for average time to return to prison, and pay them a bonus every year a prisoner is over that average date for 10 years type thing.

So jails make little money for the incarceration but earn profits from the rehabilitation.

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#47

Post by adventured »

noworriesnate wrote: post #19
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Wow that is awful. I didn't realize this was happening. Here's a link: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/california-bans... Also, to your point, private prisons only account for 8.41% of the prison population in the U.S. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#United_States

During the 30-35 years of the rapid prison population expansion, private prisons represented an even smaller portion of the US prison population, closer to 2-3% averaged. Their expansion in market share has occurred at a time when the US prison population has been shrinking, but that's a wildly inconvenient fact.

It was government prisons nearly all of those people were put into during the prime years of the massive drug war, not private prisons. Commenters always and without exception intentionally ignore that fact, for obvious reasons (implodes the propaganda). I'm entirely against private prisons, however it's comical the lengths people will go to, to pretend it wasn't government prisons those millions of people were put into. The prison boom was a government prison boom. The prison industrial complex was a government effort almost exclusively. The drug war was a government effort. The cops (government) benefitted, the police unions benefitted, the government contractors benefitted, the politicians benefitted (jobs and construction in their districts, along with more tax money and government spending).

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#48

Post by staycoolboy »

ogre_codes wrote: post #32
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power. Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for longer mandatory prison terms regardl…

Why is this comment greyed? It's not an insult, or troll, it's a known problem and the OP shifted the debate to horrible stuff done in state prisons, which is equally true and awful, but doesn't change the facts, right?

From the ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration...

Here's a classic example: "Kids for Cash", 2011 in PA:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/08/11/139536686...

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#49

Post by newacct583 »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #33
thebean11 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.

It's not a straw man, it is fact. Parent post wasn't saying this was no big deal, just pointing out correctly that there are more fundamental issues in play - like qualified immunity and the cultural racist cancers we suffer from that demonize poor and brown people and fetishize the military and police. Private prisons are awful . Any sane ethical person must agree with that. But calling out that it isn't the root of…

A strawman argument can be true, but still be a strawman. The essential point is that it's a distraction.

Saying "we have to fix state prisons too!" is not an argument against "private prisons are a moral hazard". We should do both!

Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)

#50

Post by anlk1000 »

rozab wrote: post #25
fennecfoxen wrote: post #16

I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…

That sounds to me like a symptom of state prisons being run like private prisons.

No, it is a symptom of governments being greedy, cruel, self serving, wasteful and criminal.
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