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Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#391

Post by rurp »

steelframe wrote: post #165

I've always had a really dry sense of humor. When I moved into a management role, my director took me aside and said something to the effect of, "I have a dry sense of humor too. When I started managing people I had to build a filter between the jokes that pop into my head and the words that escape my mouth." This was from my first year of managing when I had one screw-up that led people who overheard the interaction…

> now that interactions have been scoped down to text chats, emails, and occasional video calls, people have to make inferences from a much smaller set of signals.

This was one of the biggest adjustments to working remote for me. When I started my first remote job I was a little insecure about my technical skills and it stressed me out not having those soft signals to gauge how well I was performing and what managers and coworkers thought of me.

For any managers of remote teams reading this, I recommend making a point of giving regular feedback to new team members. When working in-person it's much easier for people to pick up a general sense of what others think they are doing well or poorly at.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#392

Post by cutemonster »

moftz wrote: post #367
mc32 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were manager I would not even imply that I’m time aware either way, unless there is an ongoing issue (someone staying too late often), (or someone who is not putting in an effort). Otherwise why even bring up your consciousness of time? It signals you’re tracking it one way or another. Edit: for addressing burnout, overwork, etc., for me personally I would start with bringing up the issue in team meetings. Do we…

I hate whenever I get asked by a manager if I've got enough work. Usually I can say yes and they move on but sometimes I know that I'm supposed to say no and accept whatever new task they want to add to my backlog (along with the expectation that the new task is most important). It usually happens with the management that are not totally aware of all of my responsibilities and what I'm currently working on. They see…

It happens that you work overtime sometimes because of such extra tasks? More than 40h/week?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#393

Post by cutemonster »

gowld wrote: post #52
_gfrc wrote: post #14

This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship. I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change. It will only make it m…

One of the few memories I have of my old job was my grandmanager saying "leaving early today?" As I passed them in the hall at 5pm.

How did you like that? Did this change how you felt about the grandmanager

Did you stay until after 5 pm usually thereafter

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#394

Post by r00fus »

CapriciousCptl wrote: post #201
Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

How about saying, “please don’t joke about firing me?” Feedback is a 2-way street and people aren’t mind readers.

One approach to react to ridiculous behavior is to simply ask the other person something like "so you're telling me to repeat that I'll be fired if I don't do X".

This technique is called mirroring.

It's a tacit reminder to the other person that what they're saying is outside the boundary of your immediate comprehension - forcing them to be more conscious of their behavior.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#395

Post by cutemonster »

pavon wrote: post #321
mc32 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were manager I would not even imply that I’m time aware either way, unless there is an ongoing issue (someone staying too late often), (or someone who is not putting in an effort). Otherwise why even bring up your consciousness of time? It signals you’re tracking it one way or another. Edit: for addressing burnout, overwork, etc., for me personally I would start with bringing up the issue in team meetings. Do we…

Agreed. If I was at an environment where people were regularly nagged about working past 3:30, it would indirectly make me feel like I had to be an early bird, and was looked down on if I wasn't.

I wonder if ppl got paid per hour, beyond a minimum say 20h week, then everyone could do what they wanted

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#396

Post by mattkrause »

P-ala-din wrote: post #388
mattkrause wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context, prevalence means something like "the proportion of affected people in some group." Men and women could be equally likely to develop some form of imposter syndrome (thus, equal prevalence), but the women could be more severely affected (scores of, say, 5 vs. 3 on some kind of test or questionnaire).

yeah, the definition of prevalence is clear to me. but it's the other way around. Men and women are affected with the same severity but women are more likely to develop it. ( or at least that's what I understood from bradjohnson's comment).

No, I don't think that's a correct interpretation: if women are more likely to develop it, then the prevalence isn't equal. Affect and prevalence just focus on rates, not severity.

I can only see two ways to make both statements consistent:

- Men and women are both likely to have an general 'diagnosis' of imposter syndrome, but women experience more 'acute attacks' of it per unit time. Half of of men and women feel like imposters during a year, but the affected women feel that way twice a week, while the affected men feel it once/week.

- Women experience it more severely than men: a male colonel feels like a lt. colonel, but a female colonel feels like a major)

Could be some combination of the two...or the writing is just a mess!

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#397

Post by BuckRogers »

pc86 wrote: post #343
BuckRogers wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why I want a union or professional organization. That level of nonsense needs a mechanism to resist with. How many lives and marriages, families suffered for political moves mostly for nothing by some lunatic.

I would rather live with the risk of a political firing than make it unnecessarily difficult to fire poor performers.

pc86, so you'd accept all sorts of insane shenanigans potentially ruining lives or encouraging suicide, happening countless times across every industry and company, just to avoid a manager having to go through a reasonable process or provide proof for firing poor performers? That doesn't seem worth it to me.

I think it's merely fair that it's as difficult to be fired, as it is to get hired today.

Companies like unions, can have good or bad leadership. That's a human issue with all organizations. But leveling the playing field with collective bargaining is priceless. People are pretty unhappy because they bought into the idea that they should hand over all power in their lives to those with the money to get a job.

I'd also like collective bargaining so that the collective worth of the workforce can be used to leverage better cuts of the profit.

It's a false choice and it'd be a great advance for my coworkers in India, they deserve the power of my weight being added in collective bargaining for the betterment of their lives too. In all seriousness, I'd feel great about that.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#398

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

mark-r wrote: post #389
goatinaboat wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee There’s an old saying, if your boss if your friend, he’s either a bad boss or a bad friend.

A couple of weeks ago my family binge-watched "The Office". That show demonstrates the truth of that saying very well.

The original - or the US adaptation?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#399

Post by danbolt »

sudhirj wrote: post #176
undefined1 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Comedy is subjective, and it's offensive, it really is. And people are making these imaginary rules, like, 'Comedy can punch up, but it can't punch down.' No, comedy punches down too sometimes, sorry. You don't make up the rules for my business without consulting a…

This gets interesting, especially with Dave Chapelle, but professional comedians like Dave and Seinfeld etc. have one very specific attribute that allows them to punch up, sideways and even down – everyone always knows they're joking (sometimes even when they're not). And comedians have no power of their own, so they can speak truth to power as much as they want. The problem is only when someone with power punches do…

This is very anecdotal, but I've noticed that teenagers will often somewhat ape some of the remarks or attitudes from comedians they enjoy. I certainly did so as a teenager, and had peers that did the same.

While a professional comedian doesn't have any power de jure like you mention, I always wonder if their words carry weight in a more implicit way. Society has ultimately put them on a stage in front of an audience, after all. That's not to say that the comedian is responsible for other people's behaviour or thinking, but I can't help but think that the remarks of a comedian are less toothless than your idea might suggest. When someone suggests a comedian look punch up, I wonder if they're engaging with the implicit effect of comedy.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#400

Post by Sodman »

pc86 wrote: post #354
notJim wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turning this into an issue of mere comfort betrays a great deal of privilege. Many, arguably most, people are a firing or two away from poverty and misery. In tech, this can be especially true of people early in their careers, and especially those from less-advantaged backgrounds. If you get fired from your first tech job, and your manager talks a bunch of shit about you, that may be your last tech job.

Even in the current climate employers are desperate for (good) developers, at all points on the experience spectrum. If you live in a city you can probably get an interview the day after you get fired. Sooner if you're willing to use a recruiter.

While this is true, saying "I got fired from my first and only job in tech. Also I can't provide any professional references because my manager has a grudge against me" can be a red flag for your next employer, or even next few employers (whether justified or not).
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