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Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#361
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have significant amount of control? Maybe I've been lucky to be part of mostly healthy organizations, but even managers have to justify/explain decisions. Either be for termination, compensation adjustment, reassigning to a different team, etc. I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimi…

I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it comes to that. Having that system in place isn't enough. You need that system to have teeth, and you need to have someone with as much power as you who will review your decisions and play dev…

> HR tends to avoid making waves. The only time I've seen HR (excuse the metaphor) plant the flag on the hill they intend to die on, it's because the person being fired or managed out was a protected class of worker. I have never seen HR push back just because the manager had insufficient reasons or suspect reasoning.

Second guessing management hiring/firing decisions that don't expose the company to unacceptable risk of liability for labor law violations generally isn't HR’s function.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a manager. Why bring this up? To watch for people working too much and potential burn out. If people are working excessively, that's not good for them or the company. I want to be able to rely on people. That means knowing how much they can do. This means if they are putting in extra hours now, I come to expect that level of output from them. This is not fair to them, and not fair for the company. I don't want th…

As a non-manager I'd like to add it also normalizes healthy work hours to all the employees. I've worked places where one or two devs outpaced everyone else by a fair margin because of the hours they put in. They're usually very skilled developers, but they're also putting in double the hours of anyone else. Management of course always praises their output and calls them "rockstars" or something, while ignoring the f…

At the same time if they're willing to do 60 hours a week of work (not if it takes them 60 hours to do 40 hours worth of work) they should probably be pointed out positively in the team meeting for putting the effort in, and privately told that it's probably not maintainable in the long term, and if they need to work that much to meet their objectives they have too much work.

But I don't see anything wrong with praising more output under the right circumstances. Everything ebbs and flows. As an IC there are times I go 3-4 days without a single commit. And there are times I have commits for 12 days straight because I'm on a roll.

I've been fighting for an "unlimited with minimum" vacation policy for the developers at my current job for a while now. It was fight to get the base increased from 2 weeks to 3, and the system doesn't allow negative PTO balances, which seems kind of draconian to me. But I'd love to see my coworkers taking 4-5 weeks a year.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds lovely in theory but gets tricky quick with employees who give you estimates that seem too high, and then don't even meet those. And then you have to figure out if they need help, if they're over their head, if they're being lazy, if they're getting interrupted by stuff that's not on your radar, or WTF is really going on, and if (a) they're not telling you and (b) you have no visibility into their day (sa…

> That sounds lovely in theory but gets tricky quick with employees who give you estimates that seem too high, and then don't even meet those. How many managers are competent enough to judge that kind of stuff, and whether or not any excuses produced are reasonable? Even in the technical manager cases I've seen, maybe 1%. The people who constantly bs excuses are often the ones rewarded, as opposed to the people who a…

> Even in the technical manager cases I've seen

You say this as if technical managers are better managers? In my experience the opposite is almost always true.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#364
This is why I left my last employer, and they acted absolutely shocked when I referenced it in my exit interview.

My manager was absolutely obsessed with KPIs and would every month review our team's numbers. My numbers were always exceptional, and in terms of overall team rankings I was almost always number 1. Regardless, she would find the one metric in which I fell below average (usually only one KPI was below average while the remaining 15 or so KPIs were above average) and tell me that I had to get my act together "if I wanted to keep my job".

I once decided respond to and challenge this threat, and she just lectured me about working in an at-will state, and even had the nerve to wink at me before asking me to leave her office. The quote I took away from her reply that day was "you have nothing to worry about as long as you do your job well".

It was after this meeting that I began aggressively putting out my resume and applying for jobs. I found a better job with higher pay and better benefits in less than a month.

A week after putting in my 2-week notice I had an exit interview in which they asked me why I started looking for new jobs, and why I had never talked to them about my lack of satisfaction working there. They told me it was "very odd" for someone to leave without warning, and said that they regretted that there was never a conversation in which they could have "retained my talent".

I told them that being threatened by my manager with termination every month and never once being praised for my high performance had motivated me to find a job that offered better job satisfaction and security. You would have thought I kicked a puppy from the reaction I got from the leaders. My manager immediately started with a "I NEVER threatened to fire you!". The CEO just shook his head. He didn't say much, but I do remember being told "this is a risk you take in the working world" like I was upset about the possibility of being fired rather than the regular verbal threats of it.

I countered by explaining that "if you want to keep your job" includes an implicit threat of termination, and that hearing this threat when your numbers are above average is demoralizing and makes it feel impossible to do a satisfactory job in the eyes of management. My manager responded with "I say those things hoping that it will motivate you and the rest of your team into doing a better job! I've always been on your side!".

My response was simple: "You did motivate me... To GET a better job. I was already doing a great job, this place just didn't recognize it". That was the end of the exit interview.

Two days later, they were begging me to stay for another MONTH because "nobody knows how to do your job". I suppose they should have thought about that before they made my employment a bargaining chip...

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#365
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets interesting, especially with Dave Chapelle, but professional comedians like Dave and Seinfeld etc. have one very specific attribute that allows them to punch up, sideways and even down – everyone always knows they're joking (sometimes even when they're not). And comedians have no power of their own, so they can speak truth to power as much as they want. The problem is only when someone with power punches do…

> The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. I don't think this is true in the modern age. Countless non-established or up and coming comedians and adjacents have gotten fired for one-off remarks in old material or social media posts. If there's a constantly evolving list (which no one person on Earth is completely aware of in its e…

Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#366
post #358

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

I had a manager do this to me once. In a situation where I knew for sure he was joking. I was top of the department, and it wasn't even in the context of having done anything wrong. He had just been given some new responsibilities, and I asked him what he was planning to change, and he said, totally jokingly, 'well, today is your last day.' And I knew 100% it was a joke, and I still felt a horrible sinking feeling fo…

I understand that sometimes the topic of a conversation can't be revealed beforehand. However, I wish more managers would give some kind of indication beforehand about how anxious one should be about it because for many people the worst-case scenario is the default presumption.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#367
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my current position it's quite usual for my manager to ask why I'm still at the office when it's 3:30PM on a friday. One of the reasons I'm still working where I am.

If I were manager I would not even imply that I’m time aware either way, unless there is an ongoing issue (someone staying too late often), (or someone who is not putting in an effort). Otherwise why even bring up your consciousness of time? It signals you’re tracking it one way or another. Edit: for addressing burnout, overwork, etc., for me personally I would start with bringing up the issue in team meetings. Do we…

I hate whenever I get asked by a manager if I've got enough work. Usually I can say yes and they move on but sometimes I know that I'm supposed to say no and accept whatever new task they want to add to my backlog (along with the expectation that the new task is most important). It usually happens with the management that are not totally aware of all of my responsibilities and what I'm currently working on. They see what little I'm doing on one project and ask for more of my time, yet I'm already working nearly full-time on other projects. I know when it's about to happen too. It will occur during a meeting when my functional manager isn't in the room and a program manager sees a task that they don't want to handle themselves. It's usually a task that's been on their backlog for a while. Their eyes light up, they turn to me, and say "Hey, are you busy?"

I really do appreciate being given enough work to keep me busy, it's better than being laid off. But I really hate being given all the extra junk that no one else wants to do simply because I'm not 100% full time on that project.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be wrong because it is worded unclearly, but I think the first is referring to the magnitude by which men and women are affected, i.e. those that are affected, be they men or women, experience the same impact to their self esteem/worth. The second is referring to the fact that women are more frequently affected by it.

That makes sense, thanks. I was misled by the use of "prevalence" in the first part of the sentence.

In this context, prevalence means something like "the proportion of affected people in some group."

Men and women could be equally likely to develop some form of imposter syndrome (thus, equal prevalence), but the women could be more severely affected (scores of, say, 5 vs. 3 on some kind of test or questionnaire).

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#369
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the few memories I have of my old job was my grandmanager saying "leaving early today?" As I passed them in the hall at 5pm.

At my current position it's quite usual for my manager to ask why I'm still at the office when it's 3:30PM on a friday. One of the reasons I'm still working where I am.

I had a manager who could sense that nothing was really getting done on a Friday afternoon and would loudly say 'go home!'

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#370
post #14

This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship. I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change. It will only make it m…

This is why, if I ever manage, my focus will be on timely deliverables and not on time-at-desk. Give me a day when you think you can deliver something, update me as soon as you realize you can't ("manage expectations"), and do whatever you want with the rest of your time...

That works until some consultant sees that one employee seems to be pretty quick getting their tasks done so management is told to have even more work assigned to them. Why give someone 30 hours of work if they are being paid to do 40 hours? The demand of work is going to inevitably fill the supply of time. As an employee, the proper way to deal with this is just find the proper amount of work you feel comfortable doing in 40 hours and make that your permanent pace. Work too fast and you'll be expected to perform like that forever. Work too slow and you'll be closer to the chopping block whenever the time comes. I'm not suggesting to be lazy and goof off as much as possible to fill the 40 hours but I am saying to expect typical management to be more concerned with how much more you could be doing rather than how much you already do.
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