Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#121

Post by korijn » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:28 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

> If you can't handle sitting there and telling them you're letting them go in person, it's probably not the path for you

I do think this is something you can learn. Having a good mentor/coach helps. I had a hard time with this personally, but after all these years I've seen almost every seat be replaced (more than once, too) and I've gotten used to it. You have to become more consciously aware that a business relationship is a separate thing from a friendly/family relationship.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#122

Post by tfehring » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

unnouinceput wrote: post #101

gowld wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A US President once gave a speech joking about assassinating the Jonas Brothers with a predator drone to protect his daughter from dating them. https://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-tells-joke-jonas-b... (Not singling out that President, but the incident was shocking.)

Considering who were/are them, I'd say even if it was bad joke, still was funny. As a father of a girl, I'd say same joke as well.

Even ignoring the drone strike part, that whole category of jokes needs to die. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMSAcZ90QI8

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#123

Post by greenshackle2 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

DevX101 wrote: post #33

While we're on this topic, managers don't invite your direct reports for one-on-one meeting out of the blue with no agenda. I've heard multiple people tell me they assume they're about to be fired.

This goes for HR too. HR at an old job invited me and a colleague to a meeting with a nondescript title. I thought my colleague must have some issue with me. But no, they wanted us to draw our vision for the company with colorful markers.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#124

Post by phibz » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

Listen to your team and be their advocate.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#125

Post by whatok » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

sudhirj wrote: post #24

The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss, but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire. Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a responsibility not to belittle it. People will take y…

"Punching up" is a rather new guideline of comedy touted within specific groups and hardly an agreed upon "basic rule". While standards have changed over the years and deplatforming happens much faster now, unless you want to invalidate entire careers or widely renown material, "punching down" can and always will have the potential to be funny.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#126

Post by tinyhouse » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

Another advice - don't criticize your employee in front of others. Whatever you have to say leave to 1:1. I once had a manager who criticized employees in stand-ups in front of the team if they didn't finish something they were supposed to.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#127

Post by normalnorm » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

bzb3 wrote: post #46

normalnorm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more or less universally recognized that jokes are only funny if they are punching upwards. Someone in a position of power making jokes about using that power against someone with less power is more akin to bullying.

Your manager is not your enemy. Your manager making a joke is not kicking you down, he's trying to breed camaraderie.

> Your manager is not your enemy. Your manager making a joke is not kicking you down, he's trying to breed camaraderie.

This is getting strangely personal. If you are joking, well done on the subtlety!

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#128

Post by salehenrahman » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

DecoPerson wrote: post #66

I grew up believing having thick skin was really important. I took this to heart, and now nothing phases me (and I’ve been in a variety of nasty situations that confirmed this). I realize this is not the norm, but I wish it was. Avoiding trigger words and peoples’ sensitivities is frustrating and further complicates complex discussions. I’m not saying we should be robots. I still have feelings. If someone I love show…

I'm not sure if you are generally lamenting about people's sensitivities, or you are just dismissing jokes about firing as "not a big deal", and that "people should get over it".

Let me repeat what the author of the article posted: DO NOT joke about firing people.

You don't need to have a thin skin to take comments about firing seriously.

When a manager said that they'd fire you, it's only smart to begin looking for work elsewhere.

The moment they said that, it's the moment that they have demonstrated the following:

- your employment status is precarious, under that manager (yes, employment is generally precarious, but at a company with a good culture, it's the company's financials that predicates your employment status, not financials plus your manager)

- your manager has demonstrated that their power has gone to their head, potentially leading to bad decisions under their management

- assuming they were joking about firing you in the first place, your manager's words regarding anything related to your job function cannot be generally taken seriously

This is not a thin skin issue. This is a bad manager issue. Start looking for work elsewhere.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#129

Post by Kronen » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #93

Kronen wrote: post #82

This is another example of the trend in the 21st Century, people being so easily offended.

That's really what you took from this? Is it possible in your mind there may be some usefulness from the admonition to new managers in the blog post in treating people with bare minimum decency in not joking about firing them, even if one were to frame it differently, or is this what you've decided is the only possible takeaway here? That people are easily offended? I'm not offended by the comment, just kind of amuse…

What you need to understand is that cultures are different, if I have a manager that doesn't get close to employees being friendly and joking even with black humour my co-workers are going to talk behind saying he is dull and unfriendly.

But probably you are american and you don't even get irony nor sarcasm, you see, a joke ;)

And my point still stands, in 21st century people is getting so easily offended like if we are all now mentally weaker.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#130

Post by graeme » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 3:34 PM UTC

tinyhouse wrote: post #117

jerf wrote: post #36

Similarly, marriage protip: Don't joke about divorces. Even if you think your partner can handle it. Mine can and we still don't do it, as policy. It's a known policy, too; we mentioned it to each other before (briefly, a long time ago, not as some big event). This is certainly far from "the one key to a happy marriage!", but it's a brick in the house. It generally fits into the larger social IQ element of thinking a…

You mean not to joke about it in front of other people? I agree of course. But between you two? seriously... A married couple should be able to talk freely, including about things they don't like. No need to create policies in advance like it's a work relationship between employee/manager. I would worry if my married life looked like a work relationship.

This is the sort of comment you should only confidently make if you’re in a happy marriage that has survived at least ten years. Ideally more.

If not, you’re speaking in a domain in which you have no experience. Or rather, it’s unclear whether any experience you do have shows expertise.

Certain people are more prone to cause divorce than others, and it is dangerous to take advice from the wrong person in this respect.