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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

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Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#321

Post by mjburgess »

agensaequivocum wrote: post #298
elil17 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that we need to go easier on “law breakers,” at least the kind of law breakers who most often get the police called on them. For instance, there is no reason for someone who committed petty theft to spend years in jail or, worse, to be treated violently by the police.

> there is no reason for someone who committed petty theft to spend years in jail Not sure what you specifically mean by petty theft, but maybe the answer is to just not steal. People need to accept personal responsibility for their actions.

The same argument applies to the police.

"Righteousness" has a way of blinding people to the abusiveness of their actions.

"Let me invent some moral principle to be violated, and when violated, permits me to abuse another however I wish."

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#322

Post by mjburgess »

downerending wrote: post #268
pickpuck wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding, based mostly on what I’ve seen on Twitter: 911 call -> Dispatch unarmed City employee, typically a social worker, who specializes in the relevant situation, population or neighborhood. Goal is to assist the individuals involved, to be compassionate instead of punitive, to get to the root cause of the issue. There is still some kind of armed security backup for the social worker’s protection in situa…

That's admirable in theory, but sounds like a recipe for getting your head blown off. There really are unrepentantly awful people in the world, and sometimes we need to save innocents from them.

Community policing has been the basis of UK policing for the last 200 years.

The violent US model of presuming crime is about "saving innocents" is dramatically at odds with the US's exceptional mental health crisis -- which forms the basis of most of its community policing issues.

The lack of universal healthcare around mental health is a catastrophe. It's remarkable how tolerant US society is to overwhelming amounts of untreated mental health problems.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#323

Post by SamReidHughes »

umvi wrote: post #140
siliconc0w wrote: post #103

The problem is American gun culture and the probability that any call might turn into a violent one. Other countries don't have that problem so they can send unarmed social workers with higher confidence, over a life time of calls, they're going to see retirement. In America that isn't the case and responders need a gun because everyone has guns and you need to have sustainable system for keeping order that ensures,…

Would it help if murdering unarmed peace keepers or whatever had extreme punishment attached? Even criminals can be trained. Kill an unarmed peace keeper, your life is effectively over.

That would require a constitutional amendment, because right now that’s first degree murder, usually a capital crime, and making the punishment worse than that would violate the 8th amendment.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#324

Post by AmIDev »

skissane wrote: post #46

The US has lots of different police forces – city police, county police, state police. Many other countries have more centralised policing with fewer levels. I think, a smaller number of bigger police forces might promote more professionalism, more professional management, oversight by more experienced politicians (state political leaders tend to be more experienced and capable than local political leaders, especiall…

I am Indian, so I don't have an idea of the state of the administration/police in USA. However, I disagree that centralization is the solution. Accumulating power in hands of few is how you end up being a pseudo-democracy like India/Brazil/Myanmar.

By centralizing the police force, USA might end up might an entire state police force supporting a leader with autocratic tendencies, like what is currently happening in India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_JNU_Attack

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#325

Post by chinesempire »

jsdevwork1 wrote: post #189
chinesempire wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever really tried one for yourself? East Berlin used to be second World, but many of my American friends moved there because they were tired sick of being harassed by their own country brutality and would never go back. Even many African countries are safer than the US if you are black. On the other side, one of the most annoying kind of tourist you can find in my city, which is Rome in Italy, are Americans.…

I sure have, Venezuela. No water, constant power failures, gas at 8-12 USD per gallon (controlled by the military police$$$, though that is a recent development), minimum wage at 5USD per month. Food at international prices. Basically non-existent judicial system. Police brutality several notches above what you see in the US.

Venezuela is in the state it is because, you know, US has tried to undermine its independence for decades.

Anyway, I've been to US several times and food, outside of the big city, is of very low quality.

Gas is pretty expensive in Europe too, is to discourage its consumption and favour power efficient vehicles.

And btw, Venezuela is one of the larger producer of oil in the world, but US seized its control for a long time and when they nationalised it, US supported coups and the rise of the actual presidency and their brutal police.

One day you'll start to feel responsible for what you did, and if you don't, the World will make you.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#326

Post by guerrilla »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #192
guerrilla wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not the goal of police abolitionists: [1] 1. https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abo... Some more references: 1. https://www.8toabolition.com/ 2. https://twitter.com/AlexandraErin/status/1268547515038806018 3. https://twitter.com/TravelingNun/status/1268510966116954114

I can understand the sentiment of the people behind those writings, but it doesn't really answer my question. What will replace the Minneapolis police department if it's disbanded? Many (most?) of its current responsibilities and funding can be given to social workers, traffic wardens, and other people not armed with guns, but that doesn't obviate the need for officers of the government to enforce the law. Laws can c…

Abolishing the police means abolishing it. Nothing will replace it. Crime will be prevented by eliminating its causes and there will be some mechanisms to deal with last resort cases. The articles explain this.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#327

Post by masonic »

antoncohen wrote: post #250
rhegart wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot more crime happens, nobody reports it though. Just like in the Bay Area for car thefts. Very underreported because we are discouraged from making reports and after the 3rd break in, don’t even bother reporting. Everyone using Camden as a success on Social media is mistaken. Poor people hurt the most, while rich and upper middle class likely never has to call the police

Armed police roaming the streets don't solve car break-ins. I specifically mentioned car break-ins in my comment below[1]. I want the police department as we know it to be disbanded so we can have real solutions to real problems. No one is saying stop solving crimes. Minneapolis may disband their police department, and get out of the union contract. But they aren't going to stop solving crimes. The lack of crimes bei…

Armed police who are specifically ordered to not interdict fleeing property criminals (the rule of engagement for most Bay Area police departments) and not respond to break-ins at all, even for fingerprints certainly won't solve car break-ins.

So, you end up with stupid posturing shit, like having two units sit in their cars with lights flashing, stationary, in one mostly-empty parking lot a night, like SCPD does by the Chili's on El Camino near Lawrence.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#328

Post by masonic »

yardie wrote: post #200
chipperyman573 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are for people who are specifically not here legally and therefore don't recieve the full protection of our constitution and laws. While I vehemently disagree with these camps, there's no reason to assume a re-born America's laws would apply to people who are not citizens/legally accepted into its borders. A fix for these camps would be to guarantee the same protections we Americans enjoy to people who come her…

> legally accepted into its borders. You should read up on who's in these camps. Most are asylum seekers. Applying for asylum is legally recognized under the Geneva Convention. Hell, I just watched a documentary where an asylum seeker was asked to come to the Tijuana/SD border for his asylum interview, thrown into detention ICE, and then transferred from one center to another before finally being deported a year late…

  Applying for asylum is legally recognized under the Geneva Convention
Only at the first border reached. So, only Canadians, Mexicans, and those coming by water directly from their nation of origin are even theoretically eligible.

People on HN thrown "Geneva Convention!" (sic) around like it's a magic amulet. There are multiple conventions with multiple articles, and the USA isn't even a signatory to all of them. When people argue random Geneva Conventions nexus for some element of policy without stating a specific Convention and Article, assume that they're bullshitting you. It's like a lazy Support rep saying, "it's in the manual... somewhere."

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#329

Post by masonic »

agensaequivocum wrote: post #303
stuzenz wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the information. Interesting comment on California gun laws. When I was working in IBM Research (a little under 20 years ago) as an Intern I took a trip to Cupertino and one of my bosses had me reach under his passenger seat to show me they had a pistol there. It was the first and only time I have seen a civilian with a pistol. I was somewhat disappointed and sad by it, I assumed he was legally carrying it…

> I was somewhat disappointed and sad by it, I assumed he was legally carrying it - obviously that assumption was wrong. Not necessarily, he could have had a CCW.

Only those with major political connections get CCWs in Santa Clara county, even 20 years ago.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#330

Post by skissane »

AmIDev wrote: post #324
skissane wrote: post #46

The US has lots of different police forces – city police, county police, state police. Many other countries have more centralised policing with fewer levels. I think, a smaller number of bigger police forces might promote more professionalism, more professional management, oversight by more experienced politicians (state political leaders tend to be more experienced and capable than local political leaders, especiall…

I am Indian, so I don't have an idea of the state of the administration/police in USA. However, I disagree that centralization is the solution. Accumulating power in hands of few is how you end up being a pseudo-democracy like India/Brazil/Myanmar. By centralizing the police force, USA might end up might an entire state police force supporting a leader with autocratic tendencies, like what is currently happening in I…

In Australia, there are no local police forces (county or city), only state and federal police. In that sense, Australian police are much more centralised than US police. And yet, I don't think Australian police are overall significantly more corrupt than US police. (Yes, Australian police do have corruption problems; but more than US police does?)

Degree of police centralisation is similar between India and Australia. India does have city police departments, but they form part of and are subordinate to the state police, rather than being independent agencies like in the US–as such, the state governments exert more control over them than local governments. And Australian state police forces have local divisions too (Police Districts, Area Commands, etc).

Rather than India's police corruption problems being due to police centralisation, I think they are likely due to India's broader corruption problems, whose causes are much more complicated than anything merely to do with the organisation of its police services.

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