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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

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Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#291

Post by stuzenz »

blastonico wrote: post #285
stuzenz wrote: post #280

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

Don't think it's fair to compare US to NZ. The New York -> City <- is more populated and complex than New Zealand.

Does population size really matter? We are talking about interactions at most of a few people to a few people. Whether it be Auckland with a population of circa a million or NY with their population - I don't think it matters when you are talking about the interactions of a few people.

I am a kiwi, but have lived in Japan for two decades as well. You could just about swap out my mentions of NZ for Japan as a second example, but I can see some comparison there not being considered fair either

I think it is fair to look for comparisons in other countries - my main point is that racial profiling happens in other countries too - but the acceptable professional standards for police engagement with the community are vastly different to what seems to be the norm in the States.

For where most of my life experience lies, whether it be Japan, Australia or New Zealand, people are not afraid or nervous of interacting with the police.

Some root cause analysis to shine the light on where the issues are would be helpful I think. I think racial issues are a partial-cause - but there are racial issues in NZ, Japan and Australia where you don't have anything like the same aggressive nature of police interaction.

It just feels like the U.S. discourse on the subject is on the side effects versus the root cause. I could be wrong - but would love to see it discussed.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#292

Post by nojvek »

fastball wrote: post #246
wbharding wrote: post #132

This has sufficient public momentum to prove that a plurality believes the current system does the public more harm than good. Of course, removing cops will reduce harm done by cops to the public. But it will also reduce harm done by cops to law breakers. Intuitively, I would expect the law breakers to benefit disproportionately, since the cops stated mission was to prevent law breaking and all. Statistics I've read…

"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." – G. Michael Hopf

What are you trying to imply by Hard times create strong men. Hard times also create broken men.

Weak is not always bad. I don’t want “supposedly strong men” being so trigger happy , their happy dropping nukes on civilian because they couldn’t let go of their “strong” ego.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#293

Post by frosted-flakes »

fzeroracer wrote: post #228
frosted-flakes wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand the sentiment of the people behind those writings, but it doesn't really answer my question. What will replace the Minneapolis police department if it's disbanded? Many (most?) of its current responsibilities and funding can be given to social workers, traffic wardens, and other people not armed with guns, but that doesn't obviate the need for officers of the government to enforce the law. Laws can c…

The answer is in the article itself. The goal of disbanding the police is so that you can rebuild it from the ground up. It does not mean 'no police ever', it means clearing out the weeds by the roots so that they don't choke the new trees you're trying to plant.

guerilla's comment about police abolitionists says that the police would be abolished, that is, not exist anymore. That's not realistic, and I assumed "disbanding" meant what you said.

But how would that work in practice? What happens in the interim? Does another PD take over temporarily? Are any members of the old police force allowed to re-join the new one? What happens to cases currently under investigation?

I saw a comment that said that Camden, NJ disbanded its PD and the county PD expanded into the city, so I guess that's one option.

In Canada, if a city's police service is disbanded, I think the provincial police service (if there is one) or federal police will automatically take over. In Ontario, that would be the Ontario Provincial Police, but most of the country is policed by the federal RCMP (Canada has a single criminal code).

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#294

Post by def8cefe »

koheripbal wrote: post #270
def8cefe wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't, but the US Constitution still defines human rights within the jurisdiction of the United States. The word 'comment' doesn't appear in your comment, but that's still what it is.

It does not define "human rights". It defines some legal rights of people within the jurisdiction of the document - not some global notion of "human rights"

Human rights are legal rights. Human rights vary by jurisdiction. For example, the The Ontario Human Rights Commission (OHRC) administers Ontario provincial law.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis...

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#295

Post by stuzenz »

antoncohen wrote: post #287
stuzenz wrote: post #280

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

The aggressiveness of police does come from fear. That fear comes from training[1]. And it is fear that people they come in contact with will have a gun. The fear is absurd and not founded in reality. In California it is illegal for a regular non-law enforcement officer to have a gun in public or in the passenger compartment of their vehicle. Open carry, concealed carry, unloaded, doesn't matter, all illegal. Open ca…

Thanks for the information. Interesting comment on California gun laws.

When I was working in IBM Research (a little under 20 years ago) as an Intern I took a trip to Cupertino and one of my bosses had me reach under his passenger seat to show me they had a pistol there. It was the first and only time I have seen a civilian with a pistol.

I was somewhat disappointed and sad by it, I assumed he was legally carrying it - obviously that assumption was wrong.

I don't think I have ever seen NZ police with a side firearm - the approach has worked here. Our risk in NZ is that the police will become more armed over time.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#296

Post by pyuser583 »

JshWright wrote: post #150
dcposch wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did a more than just a reorg. Disbanding and replacing a PD eliminates the old police union contracts. Those lopsided contracts are at the root of the impunity and violence we've seen over the past week. Many cities have made extraordinary contractual concessions, including: - Secrecy clauses. Officer Bob might have 31 excessive force complaints against him, but the city is contractually forbidden from making th…

I don't understand why there isn't a professional license required for LEOs. I'm a paramedic. If I harmed a patient once (let along 31 times), my card would get revoked and that would be that. A cop, meanwhile, is likely to face no consequences at all, and in the absolute "worst" case scenario, they would just get a job in the next town over.

In many states there is.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#297

Post by pyuser583 »

skissane wrote: post #46

The US has lots of different police forces – city police, county police, state police. Many other countries have more centralised policing with fewer levels. I think, a smaller number of bigger police forces might promote more professionalism, more professional management, oversight by more experienced politicians (state political leaders tend to be more experienced and capable than local political leaders, especiall…

Where I live, County level officials are the folks who implement state policies. For example XYZ County Department of Family services investigate child abuse for the state.

We even have a saying “counties are merely agents of the state.”

This is a Midwestern thing. The south has strong, independent counties.

The moral is that States, counties, and municipalities aren’t just “levels.”

In my state, there really is no state government above the county level (outside the state Capitol that is.)

There is an exception for law enforcement: we have state troopers and state department of investigation.

Neither are a substitute for local police.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#298

Post by agensaequivocum »

elil17 wrote: post #266
wbharding wrote: post #132

This has sufficient public momentum to prove that a plurality believes the current system does the public more harm than good. Of course, removing cops will reduce harm done by cops to the public. But it will also reduce harm done by cops to law breakers. Intuitively, I would expect the law breakers to benefit disproportionately, since the cops stated mission was to prevent law breaking and all. Statistics I've read…

I think the point is that we need to go easier on “law breakers,” at least the kind of law breakers who most often get the police called on them. For instance, there is no reason for someone who committed petty theft to spend years in jail or, worse, to be treated violently by the police.

> there is no reason for someone who committed petty theft to spend years in jail

Not sure what you specifically mean by petty theft, but maybe the answer is to just not steal. People need to accept personal responsibility for their actions.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#299

Post by pyuser583 »

jsdevwork1 wrote: post #72
jeffbee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Americans need to realize that almost everything about our society is a bad first draft, in need of prompt replacement. People reflexively defend existing institutions, but the more I've thought about it over the years, the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving. Police departments might be a good place to start, but most American cities also need to address structural d…

>the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving I would suggest living in a third or second world country without outside support. I had your same mindset, and did that for a few years. I could not wait to come back.

Or even Western Europe. I’ve lived in the UK, and it absolutely gave me an appreciation for many aspects of American life.

For example, municipal government and school boards. Yes they can go bad. But as the protestors in Minneapolis are showing, the city is extremely responsive because it is local.

If there was a similar protest in Birmingham (UK), I can’t imagine the city disbanding the police department under any circumstances.

It might result in parliament taking action. But the idea of independent municipal government is very lacking.

Municipal governments in England are very much subordinate to Parliament.

There’s a reason Blair was so pathetically and stupidly pro-American. America actually has a lot to offer.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#300

Post by pyuser583 »

chinesempire wrote: post #172
jsdevwork1 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving I would suggest living in a third or second world country without outside support. I had your same mindset, and did that for a few years. I could not wait to come back.

Have you ever really tried one for yourself? East Berlin used to be second World, but many of my American friends moved there because they were tired sick of being harassed by their own country brutality and would never go back. Even many African countries are safer than the US if you are black. On the other side, one of the most annoying kind of tourist you can find in my city, which is Rome in Italy, are Americans.…

I like how you used the phrase “second world.” Most people have forgotten that’s a thing. Now it’s just Belarus.
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