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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

theappeal.org

301–310 of 398 posts

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#301
post #290

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

Gun control is an extremely polarized topic here. “Right to bear arms” is part of the second amendment in constitution. As long as that stays there, we’ll have far more gun related deaths than any other western nation per capita. The NRA is well funded and lobbies (bribes) republicans to vote against anything gun control related. There is just so much money to be made from guns that we’re happy to sacrifice human liv…

> The NRA is well funded and lobbies (bribes) republicans to vote against anything gun control related.

A very large majority of gun owners hate the NRA (Negotiating Our Rights Away) since they tend to sit back and watch (and support) our rights be legislated away, for example, the 1934 NFA, the 1968 GCA and 1986 Hughes amendment; and, after they lose a position, they give a never fight it again. Many Republicans are not much better.

There are gun control group that also lobby quite a bit. It's not one sided.

These protests and riots/looting are doing more for gun rights than any argument could ever hope to achieve.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#302

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

The aggressiveness of police does come from fear. That fear comes from training[1]. And it is fear that people they come in contact with will have a gun. The fear is absurd and not founded in reality. In California it is illegal for a regular non-law enforcement officer to have a gun in public or in the passenger compartment of their vehicle. Open carry, concealed carry, unloaded, doesn't matter, all illegal. Open ca…

> Open carry, concealed carry, unloaded, doesn't matter, all illegal.

It's way more complicated than that.

Unloaded open carry is allowed outside of a municipality and when hunting or fishing.

Depending on where you live, a CCW is not exceedingly difficult to obtain and it's valid throughout the whole state.

You can have one unloaded without a CCW in the passenger compartment, so long as it is in a locked case not including the glove compartment.

Also unloaded open carry was legal until 2012.

Edit: Also there is a good chance that one of a number of current court cases will force CA to either make open carry or concealed carry shall issue or unrestricted.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aggressiveness of police does come from fear. That fear comes from training[1]. And it is fear that people they come in contact with will have a gun. The fear is absurd and not founded in reality. In California it is illegal for a regular non-law enforcement officer to have a gun in public or in the passenger compartment of their vehicle. Open carry, concealed carry, unloaded, doesn't matter, all illegal. Open ca…

Thanks for the information. Interesting comment on California gun laws. When I was working in IBM Research (a little under 20 years ago) as an Intern I took a trip to Cupertino and one of my bosses had me reach under his passenger seat to show me they had a pistol there. It was the first and only time I have seen a civilian with a pistol. I was somewhat disappointed and sad by it, I assumed he was legally carrying it…

> I was somewhat disappointed and sad by it, I assumed he was legally carrying it - obviously that assumption was wrong.

Not necessarily, he could have had a CCW.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding, based mostly on what I’ve seen on Twitter: 911 call -> Dispatch unarmed City employee, typically a social worker, who specializes in the relevant situation, population or neighborhood. Goal is to assist the individuals involved, to be compassionate instead of punitive, to get to the root cause of the issue. There is still some kind of armed security backup for the social worker’s protection in situa…

That's admirable in theory, but sounds like a recipe for getting your head blown off. There really are unrepentantly awful people in the world, and sometimes we need to save innocents from them.

On the other side of that extreme, you'll take cops filling innocent people with lead?

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#305
post #162

I don't live in Minneapolis, and I don't know if this is the right solution or not. But what bothers me about what I've read so far, is they seem to have remarkably little details about exactly what they want to replace the department with. Exactly what does "community-led public safety" mean?

Ultimately, protest leaders are building their goals and demands on the storied tradition of radical economic-political thought (more specifically anarchist and communist, to give credit where credit is due) and naturally the language they are using, like “community-led public safety”, is drawn from these international streams and their academic equivalents. Both anarchist and communist thought sees societal development as a science that can be predicted. They match moments of change (eg, the Industrial Revolution) to a linear (so-to-speak) slope, believing the future world that they have conceived of is certain to eventually come about.

Why is this so relevant now? We all see technology making advancements that are beginning to eliminate the need of human labor, a development that is majorly significant for those who subscribe to these theories. Recently, Andrew Yang's campaign focused on this merely factual development, bringing the idea to the forefront as a national discussion (this was extremely prescient and needed). Anarchists and communists start from this observation and conclude that eventually mankind's needs will be met without man himself exerting any labor.

In this view, once technology ensures all of mankind's material needs are satisfied, man will be left to engage in leisure and the creation and enjoyment of culture, art and literature, in a final utopian mode of life called "Full Communism". In this final state, the theorists envision no nations, no borders, no private property, no needed labor, and no "tyranny" of any man over another. That is, the goal of this final state is that no one individual will have any authority over another individual: here no man is a king and every man is a king. This is their conception of "freedom" and thus anything apart from this is "tyranny".

The theory is rooted in idealism, refusing to settle for the world as it is, but insisting on the world as it, in their view, could or should be. Subscribers to these theories adopt almost these exact words for themselves as a badge of honor or rallying cry. The practical problem with all of this is the inconvenient fact that, no matter the year and no matter the environment, man collectively refuses to act as they imagine he does. There remains perpetually some variable the theory cannot account for.

The theoretical problem with all this is an incorrect conception of authority. Nature abhors a vacuum; it happens to be likewise with authority. Eliminating the police does not eliminate authority. Because man seeks power, there is always someone who will take charge; the only question is whether those not in power have any right to recourse. Without an organisation that has a monopoly on the legitimate employment of violence (ie, the police), whichever group (in their terminology: "affinity group") is the most violent is the de facto authority. The theorists involved see nothing about the current system distinct from Hobbes' suggestion regarding pre-society, "In the state of nature profit is the measure of right". They think we are in that state of nature and the status quo forces have just happened to have, as a gang, clawed their way to the top. Believing the current system is nothing more than the outworking of an arbitrary thrashing-about, meant to impose arbitrary will, they see nothing wrong with eliminating it and beginning an even more scrappy and perpetually incomplete process.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't think it's fair to compare US to NZ. The New York -> City <- is more populated and complex than New Zealand.

Does population size really matter? We are talking about interactions at most of a few people to a few people. Whether it be Auckland with a population of circa a million or NY with their population - I don't think it matters when you are talking about the interactions of a few people. I am a kiwi, but have lived in Japan for two decades as well. You could just about swap out my mentions of NZ for Japan as a second e…

Points that I see different are:

- there're terrorists, they have attacked the US and might try to attack again. Police is the 1st line of defense.

- Both Japan and NZ are island s. Border control is easier to some extent. There criminals crossing borders with drugs and other illegal stuff - and illegal immigrants as well.

- Social differences: hundreds of billionaires, billions of poor people.

- Race differences: people from every part of the world wants to live there. So there's a considerable number of Latins, Asians, Middle East, Africans, plus the racial issues with afro descents. It's not easy to provide security to all those differences, each has their own culture.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't think it's fair to compare US to NZ. The New York -> City <- is more populated and complex than New Zealand.

Does population size really matter? We are talking about interactions at most of a few people to a few people. Whether it be Auckland with a population of circa a million or NY with their population - I don't think it matters when you are talking about the interactions of a few people. I am a kiwi, but have lived in Japan for two decades as well. You could just about swap out my mentions of NZ for Japan as a second e…

Please, don't get me wrong, I have all the respect to NZ, that I consider a heaven in the Earth. My initial sentence might have sounded harsh but I didn't mean to.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still live in Minneapolis and most people that I know want to stay. Everyone who watched the video knows George Floyd was murdered, but the MPD and its union still want to fight their termination and all charges. MPD response to protesters has been incompetent, callous, and malicious. The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis…

All public sector unions should be banned, I'm not going to fight you on that one. But, again, I just don't share this optimism. >The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis. Maybe things have changed since I moved away in 2013, but this wasn't true back then. Both parents of one of my classmates in elementary school were cops an…

It was true, even back then. In 2015, only 5.4% of the MPD lived within city limits. [1] This isn't a recent change, and IMO it's a major driver of the "occupier"/"us vs them" mindset many cops in the MPD appear to have. (example: [2])

[1] https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/03/20/police-officer-resi... [2] http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-police-officer-urg...

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#309

"Dissolve the organization and start over from scratch" is an under-used solution in American life, even in the private sector. Apparently Camden, NJ did a version of this in 2013 with a fair amount of success: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camde...

Milton Friedman said one of the most important aspect of capitalism, more than the profit motive, was that bad companies are allowed to fail & better company can fill the need.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#310
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm against more police. I think communities would be better served by an increase in social workers in most cases. Drug usage and homelessness won't be solved by imprisoning people and forever branding them as criminals. You need bridge housing, treatment programs, and services for these people. And an educational system that is well funded, regardless of the community it serves. I t…

I am fine with more police if we entirely redefine police to mean social workers, counselors, community assistants, etc. And if they didn't carry guns nor drive unmarked cars. Police should be seen and they should be seen interacting positively with the community, not patrolling in a gradient of (un)identifiable vehicles.

I agree with all your points; and while we’re on the subject of optics reform, I have an entirely unsubstantiated pet theory that if we made police uniforms pink, we would see abuse of power drop substantially - the idea being to create a very different (visual and emotional) image of what a police officer is and what they do, and the pink specifically serving the dual purposes of a) reminding police that their job is less about force and more about supporting the community, and b) filtering out any men whose sense of masculinity is so withered/warped that they’d take issue with the standard uniform of a highly-esteemed servant of the community.
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