Why I Use Suckless Tools • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#61

Post by macspoofing » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

factorialboy wrote: post #34

Back in the day, I used to distro hop, window manager hop and try to find the ever eluding "perfect" setup. This lasted maybe 15 years. There was a sense of vanity in trying to be different yet spectacular. Today I would tell my younger self that use what makes you productive. Even if it is the standard Windows or Mac OS environments. R/unixporn is the nerds equivalent of shirtless beach dudes.

>R/unixporn is the nerds equivalent of shirtless beach dudes.

r/unixporn is a subreddit for sharing your desktop wallpaper.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#62

Post by Certhas » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

kamranjon wrote: post #35

jdub wrote: post #22

As much as possible, I try to use software created by kind communities. The behaviours and attitudes in the "suckless" world come across as combative, exclusive, and unpleasant.

In what way are they combative or unpleasant? I've never experienced this. I enjoy the philosophy and opinionated approach they have to development. I setup an old thinkpad with openbsd and dwm and st and it all worked great and i learned some C along the way. I also used sent - their plaintext slide presentation tool to give a talk at work and it was a pretty cool way to put a presentation together quickly and focus…

Well if you read their philosophy page it's half about how they want to write cool software focusing on advanced users, and half about how everyone else is a misguided idiot with wrong ideas... I mean it's kind of in the name. I always took suckless to imply that everything else sucks more.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#63

Post by douchescript » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

Nice writeup. I have spent years on dvtm and dwm. Only problem for me is that as i get older i get less interested in bikeshedding my dev setup. I get the same feel from trying to get the right mix of ui programs as trying to manage a javascript frankenstack - just too much work for little gain, and that it breaks over time.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#64

Post by joombaga » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

necrotic_comp wrote: post #47

factorialboy wrote: post #34

Back in the day, I used to distro hop, window manager hop and try to find the ever eluding "perfect" setup. This lasted maybe 15 years. There was a sense of vanity in trying to be different yet spectacular. Today I would tell my younger self that use what makes you productive. Even if it is the standard Windows or Mac OS environments. R/unixporn is the nerds equivalent of shirtless beach dudes.

I agree with this. I'd been struggling with using Xmonad et. al. on the desktop for years, figuring that there was something wrong with how I was doing it, hacking on the config to get it just right . Then the pandemic happened, and I had to work from home. So I went to ICEWM, have my terminal with Tmux in the center screen and my web browsers on my left and right monitors and that's good enough for me to be producti…

> So yeah, the perfect setup is not the one that's the coolest, it's the one that lets you get things done efficiently.

My ADD makes these the same. Having a cool desktop setup is the only way I can stay interested enough to get any work done.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#65

Post by dilandau » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

Suckless is all about hacking your own tools. Totally unsurprising that "hacker" "news" doesn't get it.

https://suckless.org/hacking/

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#66

Post by geerlingguy » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

This post highlights many of the reasons why I’ve chosen to just stick with a standard, widely-used desktop OS (macOS in my case, but could easily be Windows or some other OS like Fedora), and use almost all the default settings, adapting to the defaults over the years.

Would the tiny incremental gain from tweaking one or two specific settings to my perfect liking save me anywhere near the amount of time, happiness, or productivity that I save from just letting someone else choose the defaults for me?

I don’t have enough time in my life to debug and recompile my window manager or Terminal app on a regular basis. Maybe a long time ago, when I was single and had a lot more time to burn.

But once you get used to an OS and set of tools—warts and all—I think the level of tweaks that are listed in this post are the equivalent of someone spending an hour each day prepping clothing and makeup.

For some people, that’s a fun part of their day. For me, it seems like torture.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#67

Post by Certhas » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #57

jdub wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with the name. That puts it in opposition immediately. They present a lot of that opposition to projects and people, rarely stated kindly. They could express a positive enthusiasm for simplicity, but that's not the way they go about it.

>Start with the name. That puts it in opposition immediately The name that immediately claims that their software sucks? I get where you are coming from, but you're just labeling the average software with a different term.

It very very clearly implies that other software sucks and theirs sucks less. If there would be any ambiguity in this they explicitly bash genetic "other hackers" all throughout their philosophy page. It's not exactly subtle.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#68

Post by noobermin » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

The thing I like about the suckless people and their tools is not breaking what works. Seriously, the primary problem with software today in my assessment is churn. Things change way too fast and you wonder how people get anything done as aging things are constantly being deprecated instead of being considered stabilized. I'm not really a developer (I'm a computational scientist, so I am a different kind of developer), so I'm not sure if this is my place to complain but if I had the time I'd write a whole article about it, I just don't think anyone would care to listen.

On the other hand, the thing that I do not like about suckless and the minimal hacker types in general is just the staunch elitism. I think you'll get some level of elitism with any group but in this case, with the minimalism comes a bit of a sense of hostility to new users who just don't think your way. It feels like there is no in between in the foss world, either people seem to be friendly and kind with TOCs and all that but force churn every few years or are militantly minimal and just super unpleasant as people. Then again, I think the thing I want isn't really minimalism, stability to me is the thing that is lacking greatly in the open source world which is sort of a side effect of the minimalism.

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#69

Post by jai_ » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

allis10 wrote: post #59

jdub wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with the name. That puts it in opposition immediately. They present a lot of that opposition to projects and people, rarely stated kindly. They could express a positive enthusiasm for simplicity, but that's not the way they go about it.

Accusations of "elitism" being what they may, the name is in fact a slice of humility: they advertise that their software "sucks less", not that it is "without suck".

This isn't an accusation. They explicitly mention this is as a design goal on their page. See the "Differences" section: https://dwm.suckless.org/

Re: Why I Use Suckless Tools

#70

Post by ozim » Sat, Jun 06, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

factorialboy wrote: post #34

Back in the day, I used to distro hop, window manager hop and try to find the ever eluding "perfect" setup. This lasted maybe 15 years. There was a sense of vanity in trying to be different yet spectacular. Today I would tell my younger self that use what makes you productive. Even if it is the standard Windows or Mac OS environments. R/unixporn is the nerds equivalent of shirtless beach dudes.

When I was a studying I also thought there is value in "finding perfect setup". That I will find that one job and I will be able to master one thing and one setup. Then workplace reality came in... One year I have to use MacBook other Windows then mix up project with a lot of linuxy stuff. One thing I learned well is to learn quick and get accustomed to different interface, different keyboard, different language. Maybe I am not writing above 80WPM but give me any keyboard and in 15-30 mins I am going to be comfortable with it.

The same with cars, get in, first 10-15 minutes of driving and after that I use important controls intuitively. I don't see value in mastering specific make of a car, it is just a tool.