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Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

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Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#121

Post by koheripbal »

asdff wrote: post #109
jcadam wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very good chance many of the stores destroyed by looting/burning in these poorer neighborhoods won't be reopening. Perfect opportunity for the large chains to close up some of these locations that had to be marginally (if at all) profitable.

Big chains can also move right back in when the economics are right with their deeper pockets and other revenue. People with little savings aren't able to ride it out nor buy back in.

It's more likely that they'll move further from the looted areas to prevent a repeat.

I mean, who's to say this won't happen again in November?

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#122

Post by koheripbal »

dashundchen wrote: post #54
tenpies wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, although I would argue that it's amplified by foreign and internal actors. It is their election year after all and 99% of US media has spend the last 4 years doing its best to destabilize the country. The other alarming aspect for other countries should be that this is quite likely a preview of what other countries will see. The unemployment numbers are awful everywhere and as the programs enacted come to a halt…

> It is their election year after all and 99% of US media has spend the last 4 years doing its best to destabilize the country. Why blame it just on the media? The current federal administration has done a fantastic job at destabilizing the country with no plans of deceleration in sight.

Agreed - both are to blame.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#123

Post by catalogia »

agensaequivocum wrote: post #88
catalogia wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except you're still killing grandma which is just as bad as police brutality. It's not clear to me that these are equivalent, nor do I see why they necessarily should be. The impact to the average life expectancy of a few young people dying could be as large or larger than several times more old people dying.

With regard to an individual going out and protesting, it is the same. If I choose to do something that I know will result in the unjust death of another I would be morally culpable of murder. I agree that when determining the best public policy. One has to weigh the risks and rewards. And the difference in life expectancy is relevant to that discussion.

In a democracy I don't think there's a clear demarcation line between determining the best public policy and individuals determining the proper actions for themselves. Individuals may choose to protest, despite their belief that doing so will spread the pandemic, because they also believe that protesting will make it less likely for other people to die for other reasons. Spreading the pandemic by protesting might make them morally culpable of murder in some sense, but failure to protest might similarly make them morally culpable of murder in some sense.

These individuals are making public policy decisions when they weigh one of these concerns against the other. As participants in a democracy, there's no way to avoid making such decisions.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#124

Post by closeparen »

013a wrote: post #110
asdff wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

110k Americans cannot be understated. That is a stupidly huge number in a year. For comparison: the entire Vietnam war saw the loss of ~70k, 9/11 saw the loss of 3500 which was enough loss of life to give justification for a nearly 20 year war, and the LAPD killed 12 people last year (1). The sentiment is absolutely correct and any loss of life is too much, but we have to put this pandemic first until it burns out or…

"Give me Liberty, or Give me death" - Patrick Henry "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin Everyone falls on one of two sides of this coin, and its startlingly difficult to understand the thought process behind those on the other side: That people are willing to, gladly, risk their lives and die in the cause of something g…

If ever you struggle to understand the mass killings of the 20th century, read this comment right here. This is how it works. Once you identify an abstraction that's more important that human life, anything is permitted.

>risk their lives

Risk other people's lives, you mean.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#125

Post by timbit42 »

AWildC182 wrote: post #68
mindslight wrote: post #44

Every full face respirator you see riot (-causing) police wearing or holding has a P100 particulate filter and could have instead been used by a nurse, EMT, or an at-risk person for protection from COVID-19. And to have so many ready to go, the cops were likely just sitting on their stockpiles throughout that period of dire PPE shortage. If that PPE had been used for healthcare as it should have, the cops would have…

If they had gone to the nurses it would have saved a lot of lives. There have been about 300 medical personnel deaths due to covid already.

600 medical personnel deaths globally.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#126

Post by Fjolsvith »

ineedasername wrote: post #81
ggreer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? There's no risk of escalation in the chemical weapons regime from the protestors, nor is there any chance of the police using lethal chemical weapons such as sarin gas. The logic around chemical weapons in the Geneva conventions was specific to escalation around chemical weapons. It wasn't a fully general argument about the use of force. Any force used by police could cause escalation, but we do allow the police…

It's not about escalating use of chemical weapons, it's about escalating the use of violence . It's not hard to see that the same tit-for-tat mentality in chemical weapons escalation could easily apply to any form of violence. Sure, protesters don't have chemical weapons like tear gas, but they could start with bleach, or a mixture or bleach & ammonia, or Molotov cocktails. It's not like the list of home-made destruc…

What authority does protesters have for escalating violence?

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#127

Post by [deleted] »

a_bonobo wrote: post #40
closeparen wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then where were the protests when similar incidents happened dozens of times before COVID? Has there been anything on this scale since Rodney King?

People were busy with their lives. Now that there's mass unemployment (=time and anger), a generally hated administration, and even more videos of police brutality all over the place it's all bubbling up.

[deleted]

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#128

Post by grawprog »

herewulf wrote: post #106
grawprog wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, normal pepper spray at point blank, about an inch from her face, from a police officer arresting her.

Oleoresin capsicum (OC) can cause a hydraulic needle effect if sprayed from too close. The velocity of the stream allows it to penetrate the eye tissue. A trained user would know the range in which it is dangerous (usually about 3 ft but depending on manufacturer, type, etc). So the police officer in question could have felt especially threatened and used it in a manner that he/she knew would be damaging or, more lik…

>describe sounds rather exaggerated. Maybe you mean "disintegrated" corneas, not the whole eyeball?

That was how it was described to me. Well the words use were more like completely gone or something like that but essentially the same thing. She got a nice up close view with an opthalmic camera so...that I guess.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#129

Post by [deleted] »

catalogia wrote: post #123
agensaequivocum wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to an individual going out and protesting, it is the same. If I choose to do something that I know will result in the unjust death of another I would be morally culpable of murder. I agree that when determining the best public policy. One has to weigh the risks and rewards. And the difference in life expectancy is relevant to that discussion.

In a democracy I don't think there's a clear demarcation line between determining the best public policy and individuals determining the proper actions for themselves. Individuals may choose to protest, despite their belief that doing so will spread the pandemic, because they also believe that protesting will make it less likely for other people to die for other reasons. Spreading the pandemic by protesting might mak…

[deleted]

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#130

Post by agensaequivocum »

jolmg wrote: post #117
agensaequivocum wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in general we support the protest insofar as we agree that there are problems with certain police incentive structures. We heavily disagree with the rioting and looting. Where we disagree with some people is the generalized notion that the principles of America are inherently evil and racist and that Americans society now in general is racist.

I thought news outlets had established that the looting was done by opportunists that are independent of the protesters. The rioting might also be independent of the protesters, perhaps to distract enforcement units away from the looting. Some of the looting does seem to be organized to a degree.

> looting was done by opportunists that are independent of the protesters

That seems right, although I think there is probably a small degree of overlap. Unfortunately, I'm still seeing multitudes of people online defending the rioting and looting.

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