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Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

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Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#71

Post by andresgottlieb »

dmux wrote: post #24
koheripbal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dose is everything. The Geneva Convention could not have regulated dosages of chemical weapons - that would not enforceable, nor practical. ...so instead they banned all chemical gases outright. This does not imply that tear gas is therefor more deadly than the government or the public is aware. The word "chemical" also doesn't mean "toxic". Water is a chemical, and when riot control measures use water cannons, shoul…

>The word "chemical" also doesn't mean "toxic". While that may be true, the definition of "chemical weapon," according to the OPCW does indeed mean toxic: https://www.opcw.org/our-work/what-chemical-weapon

Exactly. Also, from the link you shared this quote seems relevant to the topic:

> Riot control agents, such as tear gas, are considered chemical weapons if used as a method of warfare. States can legitimately possess riot control agents and use them for domestic law enforcement purposes, but states that are members of the Chemical Weapons Convention must declare what type of riot agents they possess

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#72

Post by jrs95 »

nostromo wrote: post #55
stefan_ wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this peak HN? People are protesting outside at great risk to themselves because they secretly hated Coronavirus restrictions and want to party? What level of deranged unawareness would ever make you say that?

While I don't think it's a conspiracy, I am convinced that the civil unrest was directly tied to the lockdowns. Floyd's death is the acute cause for the protests, but we've had these protests before and they were much milder. Add mass unemployment, economic uncertainty, closed bars, closed parks, shelter-in-place orders, zero entertainment, no sports, etc., and you suddenly have an explosive situation.

It's related to the media reaction to the initial backlash as well. I personally dont think events like this are ever purely grassroots, someone powerful decided they would benefit from it and helped push it forward.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#73

Post by jrs95 »

agensaequivocum wrote: post #25
jolmg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that addressing police brutality is more important than stopping COVID-19 spread which is more important than going to work and visiting families.

Except you're still killing grandma which is just as bad as police brutality.

[flagged]

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#74

Post by dagnabbit »

stefan_ wrote: post #39
war1025 wrote: post #2

> Especially During COVID Public gatherings are supposedly extremely dangerous right now. The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face. In February the "Philly had a parade, St Louis Stayed home" article was being shared by here and everywhere else. Fr…

Is this peak HN? People are protesting outside at great risk to themselves because they secretly hated Coronavirus restrictions and want to party? What level of deranged unawareness would ever make you say that?

dang works hard to ensure that HN is a safe space for white nationalists and other bigots.

posts like that exist specifically because dang thinks they are more important than having a community that welcomes minorities.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#75

Post by bleachedsleet »

war1025 wrote: post #2

> Especially During COVID Public gatherings are supposedly extremely dangerous right now. The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face. In February the "Philly had a parade, St Louis Stayed home" article was being shared by here and everywhere else. Fr…

COVID is still dangerous and protesting during a pandemic is still equally dangerous as well. It's just that in a cost benefit analysis the public has collectively decided that risking their own health is less important than the prolonged abuses of an unhinged police system.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#76

Post by war1025 »

__s wrote: post #67
war1025 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great way of phrasing something I've tried saying several times but it always fell flat.

Since I'm gathering you're more open than your initial post gave on, I'll try give feedback on the difference here. Your posts seemed to blame lockdowns as the issue, minimizing the unavoidable impacts of the pandemic. aphextron references a breakdown in supply chains & social support, something the american government has failed to step in for, preferring corporate bail outs ie there's not an implication that these…

Thank you for the reminder to be overly explicit when describing things on the internet.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#77

Post by dekhn »

grawprog wrote: post #63
dominotw wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

any idea why this happened to her in particular. Was there anything special about this pepper spray.

No, normal pepper spray at point blank, about an inch from her face, from a police officer arresting her.

there's got to be some relevant detail missing here, pepper spray wouldn't cause your eyes to disintegrate in the way you described.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#78

Post by bbatha »

frompdx wrote: post #52
danielbln wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for that is not necessarily its direct harm though, but to avoid combating parties one-upping each other with chemical warfare, e.g starting with teargas and escalating to sarine gas or whatever. This post explains it better: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gwtj89/the_c...

> but to avoid combating parties one-upping each other with chemical warfare That policy makes sense and seems applicable to protests to prevent peaceful protests from escalating and becoming violent.

No its specifically about field commanders. When a field commander sees gas they respond with gas because the taboo has been broken and they may have insufficient data to know that its less-than-lethal. Protesters are not armed with WMDs that they can radio in before the smoke clears. It can certainly escalate a situation but its unlikely to break the WMD taboo which is what the treaty cares about.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#79

Post by catalogia »

agensaequivocum wrote: post #25
jolmg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that addressing police brutality is more important than stopping COVID-19 spread which is more important than going to work and visiting families.

Except you're still killing grandma which is just as bad as police brutality.

> Except you're still killing grandma which is just as bad as police brutality.

It's not clear to me that these are equivalent, nor do I see why they necessarily should be. The impact to the average life expectancy of a few young people dying could be as large or larger than several times more old people dying.

Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID

#80

Post by asdff »

vore wrote: post #4
war1025 wrote: post #2

> Especially During COVID Public gatherings are supposedly extremely dangerous right now. The fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests we got the severity of Coronavirus wrong and people are using this as a convenient out for backing off shelter in place orders without losing face. In February the "Philly had a parade, St Louis Stayed home" article was being shared by here and everywhere else. Fr…

Or maybe the fact that everyone is suddenly all for mass protests suggests that police brutality is a horrible forever unaddressed injustice that doesn't care if there's a pandemic or not?

110k Americans cannot be understated. That is a stupidly huge number in a year. For comparison: the entire Vietnam war saw the loss of ~70k, 9/11 saw the loss of 3500 which was enough loss of life to give justification for a nearly 20 year war, and the LAPD killed 12 people last year (1).

The sentiment is absolutely correct and any loss of life is too much, but we have to put this pandemic first until it burns out or there is a vaccine, then we can talk about mass gatherings again. This energy is much better spent crafting ballot initiatives that are capable of enacting real change, gathering signatures, registering voters, and getting people to the polls. Protesting alone doesn't solve anything. We saw the further militarization of police after Rodney King, and we saw nothing change after occupy wall street.

Protests give people an outlet to vent but they don't enact real change. Laws and votes do. I worry too that even if people vote in the presidential election, they will continue to leave their local elections by the wayside and these races are what really decides how your community is governed and policed, and have a far more real affect on your life than whoever sits in the white house.

1. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-12/lapd-use...

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