Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends • Hacker News Board

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#431

Post by dantheman » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 2:36 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #296

megaman821 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to go off on a tangent but what you said is true, most people don't care about Linux...or Windows, or MacOS. They have a general apathy to whatever desktop OS they use, with a slight bias to whatever they used last. People just want to use the applications they want and need. Perhaps the same statement would apply to workplace control. Most people have a general apathy to their workplace governance and only care…

My overall point is that there are many examples of the dominant players in a market being inferior in certain ways compared to more obscure choices, and there are different reasons for it. Cooperatives and alternative corporate governance models are simply less well-known, not unlike the average consumer hasn't even heard of Linux. They don't know the benefits involved in these alternate models. You can extend to ma…

Are you saying Windows is inferior to Linux on the desktop?

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#432

Post by downerending » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

treyfitty wrote: post #428

downerending wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the should part, but I think everyone needs a reason to get out of bed in the morning, to know that they're contributing to their family and their society as a whole. Imagine how unpleasant it would ultimately be to be told that your needs would be well met, but you would no longer be allowed to carry out productive work.

I’ve been on paternity leave for 4 months out of 6 just playing with my kids. It’s awesome. I would love to not work and just play with my kids.

Every time you could spend five more minutes playing with your kids, you should, in my opinion. That's pretty much the meaning of life.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#433

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:36 AM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #431

Apocryphon wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My overall point is that there are many examples of the dominant players in a market being inferior in certain ways compared to more obscure choices, and there are different reasons for it. Cooperatives and alternative corporate governance models are simply less well-known, not unlike the average consumer hasn't even heard of Linux. They don't know the benefits involved in these alternate models. You can extend to ma…

Are you saying Windows is inferior to Linux on the desktop?

In terms of not crashing, fewer security issues, no telemetry, or having to pay money for it, sure. Point is it's an alternative that could potentially serve the needs of some users better than Windows does, but will likely never be considered by them just because it's almost unknown to the general public. I'm sure better examples exist.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#434

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #292

chrischen wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you consider that older larger firms can use their position to artificially suppress competition.

The government is the tool used to suppress competition. This is why the solution of making the government ever more powerful isn't going to work.

Government has funds, land, resources and tons of attention. A competent business man should be able to forge large numbers of jobs out of this. If done on sufficient scale elaborate services and infrastructure can be build that gives corporations a huge advantage. These jobs can remove people from the labor pool and create a kind of cabin in the woods "exit" strategy that will eventually drive up wages and the value of training/education.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#435

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:46 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #422

WalterBright wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not say "only".

You didn't, but your phrasing certainly implied it. "The government is the tool used to suppress competition" is a very stark statement. Next time, say "a" or "one of the" tools.

A simple alternative ingredient could be that firing (read "punishing") employees on a small scale has a large chilling effect. Relaxing labor laws/job security may have a much larger long term effect. If I ask for a raise, will I get fired first either way?

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#436

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:48 AM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #404

Frondo wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were all local municipalities, responsive to their electorate - if the surfers in a community wanted Google fiber huts, they could elect councils who would allow them. I think it's reasonable that people should have local control over their city environs, even if it means a multinational like Google can't come in and build new infrastructure. It's not a "will of the people, unless Google wants to build fiber hu…

>Those were all local municipalities, responsive to their electorate - if the surfers in a community wanted Google fiber huts, they could elect councils who would allow them This is an idealistic line of thinking, but as a practical matter, is completely untrue. Essentially 0% of America understand their county commissioners' stance on ISP competition, myself included. No one campaigns on those things. It's a lot lik…

Representation is an outdated system that was great in de pony express days.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#437

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #369

devalgo wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Democracy is not an efficient way of running a business Have any data to back that up? Comparing a democratically run corporation to the US government is a non sequitur. Outside VC there is no business model that will allow you to run at a loss for decades. So it's a scenario that's not even possible hypothetically. Somewhat anecdotal but there is a Worker Co-op in Spain, Mondragon, that's been a very competitive co…

Part of this is that VCs as you describe. It doesn't matter if a democratic social media company is more sustainable than Facebook when Facebook receives a half a billion dollars in VC funding to patch up its problems. Anecdotally, I hear that Ford's biggest problem right now is the union's resistance in adopting the Toyota production system. If I were a factory worker, I wouldn't want to change the way I do things j…

For that business it might not be a good formula but public education seems to be the biggest thing missing. I've talked with employees who could very very easily run the show themselves if they simply got organized and made a [much smaller] bid on the contract their employer was bidding on. They also know their managers share in the huge profits, drink coffee all day and never show their face(!) If the people doing the work ask for anything there will be a huge deliberate delay or it won't be done as a reminder not to ask for things. Do it again and you will get punished. They are on a first name basis with employees working far away because of the sheer amount of improvisation. If you need widgets you will have to get them from someone.

The employees all know they could run the business but they cant picture themselves doing it. Their arguments are "It's to complicated" but struggle and fail to explain how. It might still not be a good idea but that they draw a blank is the ultimate hurdle for now.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#438

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:19 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #398

Aunche wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Even the far right Ben Shapiro admitted he would support UBI if automation makes most jobs obsolete. There are smart workers and dumb shareholders, but at the end of the day, people respond to incentives. Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to…

> I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that your response was invalid. You are responding to a normative, idealistic statement about universal values with your own slightly more concrete hypothetical. A misapplied exercise in practicality. > Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want…

I keep [half] joking to my managers that they should spend a few days on the work floor doing those jobs they argue so easy about. Not doing so makes it impossible to prioritize their own tasks properly. There is some child like joy in picking tasks by what they feel like doing.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#439

Post by 6510 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 4:22 AM UTC

devalgo wrote: post #322

zby wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know - there are cooperatives - it is not like you need to risk your life to work at one. Somehow they are not that popular. There are also partnerships - which are kind of close to cooperatives, when they employ only the partners and for example outsource office cleaning and stuff. In some industries they do pretty well - for example in law. Why cooperatives do poorly? Maybe people usually are not very good…

>Why cooperatives do poorly? I don't think you have evidence to back this up. The reality is that cooperatives are very rare, so 99% of people don't even have to option to work for one. It's probably not even clear to the vast majority of workers that such a thing is even possible. This says nothing of the extreme aversion to anything even remotely resembling collectivism in the US.

Education

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#440

Post by Aunche » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 5:10 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #398

Aunche wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Even the far right Ben Shapiro admitted he would support UBI if automation makes most jobs obsolete. There are smart workers and dumb shareholders, but at the end of the day, people respond to incentives. Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to…

> I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that your response was invalid. You are responding to a normative, idealistic statement about universal values with your own slightly more concrete hypothetical. A misapplied exercise in practicality. > Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want…

> You are responding to a normative, idealistic statement about universal values with your own slightly more concrete hypothetical.

What's your point? I obviously don't think the purpose of life is to maximize shareholder value. I'm merely illustrating where I find such idealism falls apart. I could be more specific, but I'm not trying to write a book.

You don't need to be a Nobel economist to know how people respond to incentives. An average family person doesn't want to risk their time, money, and health on helping to pivot Audi to a company that makes bleeding edge EVs. A company that is truly revolutionary has to focus as much energy as possible on delivering or some other company is going to do it first. That's why most successful startups are very cult-like. This comes at a cost to the worker and leads to scam companies like Theranos, but the alternative is that you're left behind.